A question about violence to the wise women on here

[WhyNotMe40]

Just something I've been mulling over.
I read on here that as soon as there is any violence the advice is to leave as they never change and it will only get worse.
But I have lost my temper with my kids on occasion and shouted, or grabbed and removed from a situation perhaps more roughly than I should have. And once I even slapped my eldest on the legs when she was 2 year old.
So I have been violent against my child. But it has never happened again and every time a situation crops up that pushes my buttons I am getting better and better at not getting shouty, being patient etc. So actually the violence didn't escalate. I have improved my parenting, and noone suggested I leave my kids never to return after I slapped a leg. I was deeply ashamed and have ensured it never happened again (and in mitigation I was horrendously sleep deprived)
So why do we say that our male partners can never improve, that it will always escalate and they can never change?
What's the difference?

Are you comparing women with fully formed minds to dependent children?

Generally speaking, adults lose their temper with children because sometimes small children can’t be reasoned with, can’t understand why no means no for example, and haven’t yet learned to moderate their behaviour.

That’s no excuse imo, but I think it’s a factor.

Can I ask how often you’ve been violent towards another adult?

I have never been violent towards another adult. I'm not saying women are children and that is twisting my words. I'm sayy that if someone is violent once to another human being then why in some circumstances can that be a "one off" but in others is said to be always the first of many increasingly violent occasions? Why can't men improve and stop it?

why can't men improve and stop it

They could, but they (the violent ones) don't want to.

It isn't about them "losing their temper", it's about power and control over another sentient adult.

It's a good question and one that reveals a lot about our attitude towards children as not really being fully human (yet.)

I am sure most of us have shouted and grabbed our DC to stop them doing something potentially dangerous.

I have only hit my DS once and that was when he blurted out a racial slur. I slapped him on the leg. I felt so awful afterwards, especially when it transpired he was just repeating what an extended family member said to him. I apologised to him and said I was wrong to hit him. (And also explained why he should never use that hurtful phrase again.)

I was regularly hit as a child, sometimes severely to the point of crying with pain. I was hit around the head a lot. I never wanted to use physical punishments with my DC. But sometimes instinct (or rather, programmed behaviour from childhood) takes over and you lash out without thinking. I think as long as you acknowledge to the child that you were wrong to do that, it's the best way forwards.

Perhaps part of the reason we feel able to smack children but not adults is that we know an adult will either fight back and/or involve the authorities, whereas a child can't. A depressing thought. :(

Often because the abuse will have started a long time before it escalates to violence. Abusers tend to use a variety of tactics and will convince you it’s because they love you.

They want control over you and are using violence to do that: they are thinking only of themselves and their wishes not the other persons wants needs or rights

So it's motivation?
The one time I slapped my child was when she wouldn't stop hurting her baby sister or throwing stuff. I think a glass containing a drink of squash for me was the last straw. I ended up paying for a parenting consultant to help as I was just a wreck on no sleep and not coping (they were tag teaming me all night).
So I was violent as I felt like they were torturing me and making my life miserable. While an adult is violent to their partner to make them feel big and in control? Is that it?

This question is very important to me as my upbringing was abusive and my first marriage was controlling and then ultimately violent. I really really don't like to think of myself as a violent abuser and yet think that sometimes I have been. Like when you have to wrestle a toddler to change a stinky nappy, into a car seat, clean their teeth - to me it sometimes feels abusive and then my friends say I'm too soft. I have been violent but it was (hopefully) a one off, but I'm always double checking myself - does that make sense?

Why can't men improve and stop it? As Anyfucker says, they can but they don’t want to. How many of the men who subject their partners to domestic violence also hit their boss? Or their colleagues? Or the police officer who pulls them over for speeding? Or their child’s teacher at Parents evening? In the majority of cases, they don’t and they won’t. So they can control their tempers perfectly well when they want to.

It's a very different thing. Abusers want to hurt and intimidate you. They do it for no reason at all. They enjoy it and they get their way. We're just verbal physical punching bags to them.

A shout or a swat on the leg or bottom isn't done with the intent of harming or bullying. Usually it's to prevent them from harming themselves or harming someone else. No, we can't stick our finger in the power point or poke the baby with a pencil.

When my cat had kittens, I saw her bite them really hard on occasion when they were screwing off or getting too boisterous with her. I was thinking wow why is she being so mean to her kittens. I had to look it up and apparently she is teaching telling them off for being too rough and teaching them social skills as in I'm the mum, pay attention.

Don't be so hard on yourself if you've shouted on occasion or grabbed them a bit too rough away from a situation.

Let's imagine for the sake of argument that there is some adult out there who as a one-off hits another adult. Presumably they would then be as appalled as you were, OP, and would seek help - and would keep themselves out of romantic relationships in the meantime, as they would recognise that they were a danger to others.

And then when they were healed, they got into a relationship, and they might or might not disclose it, because there would be no record of it. Maybe such a person exists.

Maybe unicorns and dragons do too.

I agree with AnyFucker. By the time they get to adulthood, they are doing it because they want to and they don't want to change.

If your child was old enough, the advice to leave would be correct, since the best predictor of future behaviour is previous behaviour. Not words and promises. Luckily you have the chance to prove you are the exception to that rule due to her age.

It's easy to excuse hitting children as 'it's for their own good.' Uncomfortable to think that these were the same reasons used by men (about women) in resisting laws on domestic violence.

I think the proof is in the pudding. You hit your child and then got help and consciously improved your parenting. I have done the same. I also hit my exh a couple of times and - crucially - then got help, dealt with my abusive childhood, stayed out of relationships until I felt I could trust myself and will never ever do this again. He didn't, he continued to blame me and the rest of the world for his abusive behaviour and I'm sure will never change.

Maybe because women are conditioned in childhood to blame themselves while men are never to blame? I am so so conscious of working against this tendency in my own parenting.

What are your thoughts op?

Who says there's a difference? The devil is in the detail. If a parent raises their voice and uses an occassional very reserved smack to control their children then, much as I do not condone smacking in any circumstances, I don't see any cause for major concern. If, however, the parent is prone to shouting, using aggressive language, using threats, insults and fear or is hitting with force and intent then I absolutely believe there should be intervention for the safety of the children. Ive read and heard far too many women describe being physically assaulted by their partner. Never though along the lines of he had smacked her leg whilst admonishing her with a raised but not aggressively shouty voice.

You are giving us your side of the story and we have to consider that you may be putting a biase on it. It's not beyond the realms of possibility that if the full facts were known there might be serious concerns. Whatever the truth is though, your scenario cannot be used to minimise the seriousness of violence against women by men, whether partners or otherwise. The statistics speak for themselves.

Men are violent to their partners as part of a pattern of coercive control and emotional abuse.

To add a very important point. It is accepted and reasonable that a parent has assumed authority over their children and that comes with the right and need to exercise control. A man has no assumed right of authority over his partner, though sadlly too many of them think otherwise, and that is the root of the problem.

The difference is that you have been able to think through your behaviour, realise why it happened, accept you were wrong and resolve to behave differently.
In my experience of domestic abuse, the perpetrator cannot genuinely accept that they were wrong and continues to justify the behaviour (at the very least internally) on the grounds that they were stressed/tired/drunk or that their 'buttons were pressed'. I think its a psychological self-defense mechanism grounded in deep insecurity.

I've never excused hitting children as for their own good, and of course you only have my side of the story, but I'm really not sugarcoating it. I am often accused by friends of being one of those parents who try to reason with their children for too long, rather than just grabbing them - as I am too scared/ wary of being an abuser.
On thinking further (thanks to the posts above) it is about control isn't it?
A parent NEEDS to control their child - and I lashed out when the situation was dangerously out of control and people were getting hurt. I have never let that happen again and instead have walked away for a few minutes whenever I have felt I was losing control of myself - and got shouty when the kids don't give me a minute to calm down and follow me! You are responsible for their safety so need to be sure of your authority eh near roads, in the car, with each other. I try to parent with respect, but that sometimes doesn't work with a toddler and you need authority so a raised voice and expressed disapproval has to be it.
While a partner should never want and certainly doesn't need to control another adult.

Is that it?

Oh and I'm not minimising. I'm wondering if I'm abusive (yes if you apply the same rules) and asking if I can change, why can't they. Ie blaming them.

I don't think it's binary. I think there can be one off violence that a person can learn from. There must be many many people that have been violent but are not violent people. I think the worry is that once a person has crossed that line they may cross it again and generally with men they are bigger and stronger than the person they are hitting (because v few men/women/people punch above their weight) there is the risk of serious injury and death. It is this factor that makes people react the way they do. They are saying that even a 0.01% chance of paralysis or death is an unacceptable percentage.

In cultures that condone wife-punishment men are seen as having authority over women and women are seen as irrational and in need of guidance in the same way as children are.

So it’s the seeing women as infants that is the issue.

I think the root cause of the violence is the defining factor in how (or if) you're able to work it out and never repeat the patterns.

I don't smack the DC, I hope I never will. But a frustrated exhausted Mother smacking a child as absolute last resort because she's 100% done (and who then finds ways to ensure she never hits that rock bottom again) is totally different to an adult in a relationship who consciously chooses to use violence as a way to exert control over a partner in the relationship.

As parents we've all hit that rock bottom, perhaps not in a smacking way but in a momentary loss of control way I know I've had to leave the room when one of the DC was small and just wouldn't stop crying because I could feel the physical reaction like a wave of anger rolling through me. It's not a state we aim for, it's not something we hone and cultivate like a tool, and it's something we'd hopefully aim to reduce and remove altogether. Whereas violence in a relationship is something more sinister because it's absolutely a choice, it's absolutely something you hone and perfect and absolutely something you know you're doing.

The guidance on leaving is generally on the idea that abusive people don't want to change and the victim can neither make them change nor should they risk themselves by waiting to see if they will take the needed steps described. It's not a matter of can't, it's a matter of we can't make them change and you're not obligated to stick around if they do try to make themselves better.

I think there is a part in the book "Why Does He Do That?" by Lundy Bancroft where a woman is describing her abusive partner who breaks and throws things and the question is asked whether he ever breaks any of his own things or cleans up any mess he made - if the abuser was actually out of control, they would smash at random and if they were actually sorry, they would try to make things right. Bancroft also asked abusive men why they stopped an attack or didn't do X certain more violent thing and they say things "I would never do that", they clearly have a line and they don't see all of their abusive actions as a problem. It isn't a loss of control, it's a display of power.

This can be true of abusive parents. Both of my parents were abusive, but it wasn't a loss of control. LIke with the abused woman in Bancroft's book, they're efforts were targetted and like with patterns of abuse, it escalated over time and was worse when my siblings and I were teens - certainly old enough to reason and discuss the issues. There were also only very very rarely any sign of remorse. That is the difference between an abusive person and people who make mistakes - though victims are still under no obligation either way and children have even fewer options than adults in these situations, but there are differences between someone who is choosing to use their power over someone in a violent way and someone who has an out of control violent outburst.

It is accepted and reasonable that a parent has assumed authority over their children and that comes with the right and need to exercise control. A man has no assumed right of authority over his partner

TooTrueToBeGood makes a very good point here. Theocracies teach that women are the property of men and therefore have to answer to them.

What you describe is a fairly normal and understandable reaction to a young child's behaviour. It's not desirable of course, but certain factors make it difficult to control an anger response, such as sleep deprivation. Having suffered a violent childhood and abusive relationships, you find it difficult to see where the line is, but your reactions are not abusive. They would be if you felt no guilt or a justification for your outbursts.

An abusive man or woman doesn't regret their outburst but feels entitled to treat another human being the way they do. That's the difference between a tired mums exasperated slap and genuine abuse.

When it comes to changing abusive behaviour a true abuser won't, because they (a) get away with it, (b) don't feel it's wrong, (c) use it to control someone, (d) feel no guilt or concern.....I'm sure there are others

While a partner should never want and certainly doesn't need to control another adult. Is that it?

Yes, that is an extremely large part of it.

if I can change, why can't they.

From what you describe, you need to change some of your strategies and you need to learn how to manage your own emotional responses better. The abusive men you're comparing yourself to need to fundamentally change their entire outlook when it comes to women and adult relationships. You have a good chance of success and will be unlikely to do your children any significant harm. Men who abuse women very rarely change and do a hell of a lot of significant harm both emotionally and physically.

I think this is a really interesting question. I too, have questioned whether i tipped into abusiveness with my dc, shouting and occasionally grabbing/man handling them when they were younger. Where is the line? Nearly all parents have shouted or lost their temper with their dc's and you could argue, that is abuse.
So, people are saying on this thread, that the op is not abusive as she has considered her actions and is genuinely sorry and has taken steps to ensure it doesn't happen again. So, why can't a man, who has tipped over into a one-off physical act of violence, be genuinely remorseful and be so shocked with himself that he never does it again?
Obviously, this is different to a classic abuser who uses violence to control and believes they are right.