If you AREN’T no contact with toxic parents..

[kingjoffreythefirst]

First things first, I know I should go no contact, but I don’t seem to be able to manage to. It didn’t bring me peace, and that’s what I want to achieve.

I have toxic parents. I’ve lost a lot of respect for them over the past year with decisions they have made, and the way they have treated me. They dropped me like a hot potato when I needed support the most, all because I didn’t do what they wanted.

I have been no contact for a few months now, but I have gotten back in touch with them now. I’ll never be free of them and their flying monkeys anyway, and I’ve been isolated from the wider family if I don’t see my parents.

I just want to find a way that I can continue to have some civil contact with my parents and see the rest of my family. I don’t want to go there for all the Sunday dinners, birthday party, bbqs, etc. It’s too much. I am happy to see them for some of these, but certainly not all. But I know they won’t accept this, and I can’t find a way to explain that I don’t want to without it sounding like an attack, which will start the whole cycle of nastiness again.

If you aren’t no contact with your toxic parents, how does your relationship work? I’m trying to find real life examples of what I can aim for. It surely doesn’t have to be all or nothing..

I agree about wider family. It's kind of heartbreaking to think that all those aunts and other people who knew me as a child aren't remotely interested in hearing my side of the story, and choose to take my mother's endless circular narrative as gospel. At the same time I always sneakily suspected they didn't give a shit about me as a child and it's something of a relief to be able to drop the pretence.

Hi
I'm as low contact as I can dare to be. I only see them because my sister and brother both do as they are nicer than me and I want to give them a break sometimes.

(I'm a turned worm. Felt guilty and at their beck and call for fifty years then suddenly thought: no, I am going to put myself first. Amazingly, my lifelong, crippling depression has almost vanished. I'm off antidepressants for the first time in my adult life. I had no idea that seeing them was quite so linked to my mental health issues.)

I made several decisions years ago:
I NEVER stay the night. Staying the night makes me feel really ill for weeks.
I walk out of the room when the poison starts, without explanation or apology, and go and do something else for as long as I need or want to.
I lie a lot. I phone them just before a 'work meeting' so calls can;t last longer than fifteen minutes. And if the poison starts, the line breaks up or someone is at the door or I have to urgently do something and say good bye.

I rarely call them. In fact, we got back from a long haul holiday two days ago and I know I should call but the thought of doing so makes me feel physically sick so I haven't yet.

Sorry to hear all tges stories.

ZaraW I can recommend a book for you entitled 'Will I ever be good enough?' for daughters of narcissistic mothers. From your one paragraph, I suspect your mother is one. Feelings of grandeur and lack of empathy are two core features of people with NPD.

I had 17 years of NC with DM. When I heard she was terminally ill it felt the right time for me to contact her. I'm glad I did. We had 6 lovely months together and I felt I experienced "normal" grief when she passed. I feel a lot more at peace with myself. I don't regret the 17 years NC as it saved my sanity.
Just accept only the invitations you want OP. Sending hugs as I know how upsetting such toxicity is xxx

Windmill thank you for the book recommendation will definitely get a copy. I never thought of her as narcissistic but she really is. I had some devastating news about my health and all she said was "well what about me I had cancer THIRTY years ago". I called her up on it she told me not to worry and that was the end of the conversation. My family really is crap.

If you find out , let me know .
Tbh I think it's easier to be nc rather than lc .
I'm nc with my dad but I'm lc with my mum I've never had any problems with mum but she's always sat on the fence even though she knows how vile dad has been and says to me what she thinks I want to hear . She also over analyse everything I'm quiet I'm tired or something must be wrong . My dad can be as nasty as anything but she will ignore pretend not to notice . Also she will bring up things with my dad and my brother who is my dads flying monkey and then go home and my other brother will say you've upset mum sort this out . It's exhausting so I don't contact mum she contacts me and it will be every few weeks or so . That's another thing now I don't make the effort I'm in the wrong even though I have tried for years . I'm past caring now , some people are only happy when they bring misery to others.

Oh wow thank you everyone for all the replies. There's so many ideas and suggestions and I'm so grateful. There's so much hurt and pain too, and I'm sorry to everyone who has experienced that 

@MargoLovebutter that sounds like something that could work for me. Or elements of it at least. I could probably manage that for brief visits.

@Fairylea that is something that worries me. My DD is only a baby yet, but it is something I think about. I don't want her putting them on a pedestal. Though I'm sure they will prove what they are to her before too long

@woodcutbirds your post really touched me. I feel exactly the same. I was on antidepressants or in therapy for some portions of my adult life and I can recognise now that it was a pattern of feeling overwhelmed by their needs and emotional manipulation. I am always made to feel like a terrible person if I don't provide the massive amount of support they need in every 'crisis' (which usually doesn't even affect them, or is exaggerated)

Thank you everyone. I'm thinking of ringing tomorrow to say I won't be going Easter Sunday (and not make excuses why, which I know I will find hard) but I will call in tomorrow or Saturday (which suits me better) for an hour to see them.

@screamifyouwant I agree nc is easier than lc. My parents do not respect boundaries and will push and push. If I don't speak to them they can't do that. It's so exhausting like you say.

All these posts really resonate with me. It’s taken me 45 years to realise that I’ve got toxic parents and I’m now going very LC with them. I actually feel relieved as if a weight has been lifted, and I’m looking forward to doing things on my terms now.

@kingjoffrey - do what you need to do. Don't spend Easter Day with them if it's unbearable.I finally plucked up courage to call them and got the full wrath that the grandchildren he ignores won't be dedicating their hard-earned Easter holidays to him but have plans.

I finally had a long nc break with my dad after a fall out, did some thinking about who he really was. After the reconciliation he doesn’t impact on me so much. I am very low contact, physically see him 2-3 times a year, call on the phone a few times more than that. I have learned to suit myself and it was hard to be selfish and step away from a happy families view of the world. I’m now pretty non committal when it comes to making arrangements to meet up. I don’t share much of myself when we do. It helps that he isn’t too demanding although his thing is that he tries to guilt trip you for not fulfilling his expectation of what a daughter should be.

My son comes with me to one visit a year. Although he professes interest in the grandchild he has never made any effort at all and to my son he is a bit of a stranger. Like a pp said, on the surface it probably looks like we get on fine when we meet - but it’s all surface these days.

I used to be really deeply angry, upset and frustrated by him. Now I feel a little sad. Took a long time to get to here.

One of my great frustrations is that other people don’t get it. They assume that we will have fully reconciled with my poor old dad and they guilt trip me about not being a better daughter. People don’t understand what it is like to try to make a relationship with a dysfunctional person who hurts you work or they are in a situation where they will accept very bad behaviour for their own reasons e.g. to save face.

One thing all of this has taught me is that it’s important to value those who give back what you put in to family relationships and friendships and to be wary of those who don’t.

Movies you have described precisely my own relationship with my dad now. And you are right, no one understands and they all think you are a bitch. His flying monkeys glare at me and my sister. But my sister worked herself to the bone, using every day of her holiday to help my dad, and he lied to his friends that she'd done nothing, bitched abotu her then had a screaming fit at her just before she left. That steeled me against him. If he;s going to bitch about what an awful lazy incosiderate cow I am, I certainly won't try to be anything more.

Facing Codependancy by Pia Mellody is another good book.

I can't be NC with my mum because it would cut me off from my dad and he's really lovely. He sucks up a lot of shit from my mum.

I don't always get it 100% right with my mum but it's much better than it was. Im still working through a lot of it with a counsellor. I keep her at arms length, nothing too long or personal and I am committed to protecting my kids from her crap and will call her on it publicly which she knows so it's largely stopped now. I do wish someone had been around to call her on it when I was a kid.

I had a very difficult relationship with my mother pretty much all my life. I realised recently that she is narcissistic. From her point of view she is perfect, she’s always done everything right, she is always the victim, people/life have always wronged her and there is absolutely no reason for her to change, no reason at all.

She also suffers from paranoia and can get hysterical if things don’t go her way. She was beating us up as children and I remember being afraid of her, her calls, her hurtful words being thrown at me pretty much all my life.

I left my country 15 years ago, for a number of reasons but her crazy behaviour played a big part in it, however my memories still haunted me for a long time even though I was so far away from her.

A few years ago however I decided to reconcile and I took her travelling with me to a few countries in Europe, she also helped me financially when I was buying my flat 5 years ago and things got much better. I was pleased. But then she pushes boundaries and I ended up keeping in very close contact and she started controlling my life again, even though it was just online. I started feeling depressed and got terrible insomnia. I decided to cut down on communicating and miraculously I felt much better.

I had my dd 18 months ago and ever since she was born all I could hear was I was doing everything wrong, EVERYTHING. The way I was feeding her was wrong, her cot was wrong, not giving a 3 week old baby crushed biscuits in her milk (like she did 40 years ago) was wrong, the toys were we’re buying were wrong (I didn’t have any as a baby) you name it. I started telling her off and she didn’t stop. She started giving me examples of all the mums that were doing everything right and I had to tell her off and cut contact. Didn’t speak to her for several months. As a result she hasn’t seen her granddaughter in person yet (she’s 18 months). She now only sees pictures of her via Facebook and we are not planning to visit her this year. I feel much better once again.

@MoviesT I feel the same about how people just don't get it. Even people I thought understood really don't.

I feel a bit helpless about it all really.

She's been sending me messages and staying in contact and it's nice, but I'm just waiting for her to get comfortable again and start screwing it all up. At the moment I feel like I matter to them and they are showing an interest in my DD. But I know it's not as simple as that.

I feel exhausted. Mentally and physically. Baby isn't sleeping well this week and I feel overwhelmed with a few things too right now. I kind of can't really deal with it right now so just letting it all go along and see how things turn out.

I still can't forgive and forget what's go on and that it was so easy to step out of our lives. But I don't know what the future holds for us yet. It won't ever be the same

@woodcutbirds...identical experiences from me. No matter what us kids do, my dad lies about us to the relatives and family friends and describes how we’ve done him wrong when the truth is the extreme opposite or at least more complex. He even poisoned those on my mums side. He did a great job on most of the aunts & uncles so that you can tell there is a distance or they feel a ‘bit sorry for him’ etc. Meanwhile we’ve been treated very badly and get zero understanding! Utterly bizarre and very unjust. The only lot who we now have any relationship with are those who have worked him out, or been blanked by him for his own reasons and they are very few in number. It is so hard to explain this to people who haven’t experienced similar. I avoid telling people as I am aware it can seem as if I am the problem.

@kingjoffreythefirst I think the only thing you can do is try to focus on self preservation. You don’t have to have contact if it’s hurting you and it may be that contact always will hurt you in some way. If you don’t want to go to an event or to visit, make excuses, cancel at the last minute or find other tactics, no need for you to play dutiful daughter. Don’t worry about being rude, if you feel the urge make no excuse, just get up and walk out. My advice is look after you and your child first. If it’s the case that within your family/with the flying monkeys you get a bad name for being weird, selfish or whatever I reckon you can live with that. Like me, you’ll build other happy relationships on firmer foundations than you can establish with family.

Movies I think it's the classic behaviour of a narcissist. I suddenly 'got' the term 'flying monkeys' when I realised my dad is a narcissist. He has a clan of devoted servants who will travel hundreds of miles to collect and deliver thinsg for him, do his DIY etc all while he bitches vilely about how awful they are and how they scrounge a glass of wine from him (after slaving for him, unpaid or paying themselves for the privilege of doing his work.)
They mystify me and I keep well out of it now.. But they do try and insinuate that I too should be doing this for him. I've decided to let people work out for themselves who he really is, and if they can't or don't, that's not my responsibility. They are all adults.

The problem is that my mum isn't used to people standing up to her. Or staying out of contact. She has twisted it round so it's my fault (or at least partially) that they stopped getting in touch when I stopped making the effort.

She now thinks that because we had a long chat the other day and I've sent a few photos of my DD that things are all back to normal and

The problem is that my mum isn't used to people standing up to her. Or staying out of contact. She has twisted it round so it's my fault (or at least partially) that they stopped getting in touch when I stopped making the effort. Because of something I apparently did (I can't remember it) about 3-4 years ago.

She now thinks that because we had a long chat the other day and I've sent a few photos of my DD that things are all back to normal and it's not. I don't want things to go back to how it was. They will never be the first people I ring when I'm upset or need support. But she is thinking it's all back to normal now like it was a year ago. So it's causing issues when I say I don't want to go somewhere, or do something because then it's me causing the issue.

I had to find other ways to cope and other people to rely on, I'm not going to go back to relying on them again when they hurt me so much. But she always just says how I hurt them and shifts focus back to that.
It's a very complex situation and I'm struggling to determine a) what I actually want from the relationship and b) how to enforce boundaries to achieve it.

King have you read any info about dealing with narcissistic parents? the grey stone technique is very useful. But so is lying. I never thought I'd ssay that so easily. But the fact is, they cannot process information in any way that makes the truth relevant. They cannot 'hear' that you are also upset or have needs. 'You' don't exist except as an adjunct to their needs and status in society. You have to lie in a way that works for both you and them. E.g. A miniscule amount of the work I do is 'glamorous' (amounts to about two months a year, if that. I just say i'm buy on it if they want to see me and I don't want to se them. They can then boast to their friends that i am doing this important work. This gives them necessary social kudos and keeps me valuable as a tool to maintain their glamour, and i get a few weeks grace between visits. It's not at all how I'd like our relationship to be, but it's the only way it functions without me guzzling anti-depressants until I'm comatose.

@kingjoffrey I would just accept that she will always blame you for being the problem. Seems to me you will never make her accept any fault, no sense in trying. The only behaviour you can control here is your own.

I had a break like you and after it the dynamic changed because I made myself more distant and I played the role I was happy to play and that creates low contact. That does involve for me the knowledge that I am royally slagged off by my dad to all and sundry, but for me I know there was always an element of that before and during the big fall out.

Be unavailable, don’t answer the phone etc. Get a few stock answers on the go. Be busy. Say no. Suit yourself and accept that there will be fall out but that fall out is not as bad as being wrapped up in your mother’s controlling world.

You are likely to get to a place where your low contact becomes the status quo if you stay strong. Or you may have another falling out. Unlikely to be your doing as you will probably have been acting reasonably, but you’ll have to ride it out. I got to where I needed to be when I realised that my dad putting fault on my side was very unfair but there was nothing I could do about it and there was no sense in wallowing in the injustice of it. You can’t argue with crazy, although you may be able to predict it from time to time. You are unlikely to get a normal relationship here so try to get a relationship that you dictate the frequency of and you feel in control of.

@woodcutbirds I agree, what I had come to realise is that my dad has a lack of empathy. So that’s why others are always in the wrong as only he can be hurt or wronged, other people’s emotions don’t resonate with him.

I use Grey Rock a lot with difficult people.

Your tactics are ace - I take my hat off to you!

I don’t think my dad is a full on diagnosable narcissist but there is for sure something going on and the empathy bypass is part of it. We siblings used to enjoy playing a form of bingo where we would predict his unreasonable next actions/words when in any sort of interaction with people. It helps to recognise the behaviour, I think it helps you feel in control and by predicting you are often ready for the worst.

I think geography is a huge factor - it's hard to be LC/NC with some who lives a mile away. Not so hard when they are 300 miles away.

@woodcutbirds @MoviesT Thanks there are some excellent ideas in there. I like to have some pre-prepared phrases to use, makes me feel more in control, so I'll adapt a few of yours!

I think the best way forward is to be less available really and cut it down slowly til it becomes the new norm, so thanks for that suggestion. I also have no issue with a lie here and there about my availability. I had a pre arranged meeting the other day when I seen them so I couldn't stay longer than I wanted and I had a ready made excuse to leave early if I wanted. I think that's the way forward.

I found peace from being no contact with them in some ways, but it did eat up at me and I spent a lot of time wondering why they weren't trying to get in touch with me. We didn't fall out as such, I just got fed up of her messages stating lies and causing trouble about another family member, so I asked for proof to which she didn't reply and I stopped messaging. And they never got in touch with me. Made me feel very unimportant to them and it's done a lot of damage to our relationship if I'm honest.

@kingjoffreythefirst. That sounds like a really positive way of moving forward.

For what it is worth I believe the circumstances of my fall out were similar in that my dad stopped calling me after a disagreement, then avoided me/blocked me then said to others that I had cut him out + a load of other stuff, meanwhile refusing to take my calls. So I didn’t make peace end and I was really really hurt that he didn’t want to be in touch with me at a time when my child was very young, a hard blow as in early motherhood I was besotted and I couldn’t understand why he wouldn’t want to know his adorable grandchild. Unlike previous times, I didn’t try to reconcile - until a long time after, and it’s been on my terms since. The relationship is much more healthy for me now. The point of telling you all that is to say that after a few years pass (in my case 5-6 since the fall out ended) and you learn to focus on others the hurt does lessen significantly. My priority now is my child, not my difficult and ungiving father and that’s the way it should be. My dads loss - I was, prior to the big fall out, a daughter who gave a lot of myself to him. Out of respect for the father daughter relationship I have maintained the contact and I am always pleasant and polite but backing away has been great for me. I am much less hurt by his actions now and things like his lack of interest in his grandchild. For the most part it washes over me and I think the emotion I feel most is mild regret at what could have been with a healthy dose of acceptance for what it is.