Stay or go?

[Pashola]

I'll try and keep this as short as possible but I also don't want to drip feed so sorry in advance if it is long.

So I've been with my husband for 18yrs, married 14yrs and 3 children, we met when I was 17yo.
For about the last 7 years or so my husband has been mentally abusive to myself and our oldest son. It is never constant, it was always off and on but 3 or so years ago it really ramped up and got much much worse, we barely had a good two weeks and it'd be on again with us having to deal with his anger, he particularly targeted our oldest son (who is now 14), it was mainly anger and us walking on eggshells around him, think things like thumping cupboards, slamming doors, punching things, yelling and being aggressive, belittling our DS, gaslighting, talking in circles, passive aggressive...so much we'd be here forever. I'd really like to give examples but don't want to put too many identifying details.

I can say though that he never called ME names and never tried to control me or who I could see, what I could do or control finances etc.

He literally sent me crazy with his behaviour to the point I thought I was crazy and thought I needed to check myself into a facility, it was the most awful time. I had to keep notes of what happened to keep my thoughts straight.
I tried to leave him so many times or ask him to leave but he always threatened me with the kids or hinted at suicide and I never followed through with leaving.
A week later he would be lovely and I would be left wondering if I imagined it all.

Three years ago, after another 6 weeks of arguing and him being horrible, me trying to get him to leave etc, I went out with a girlfriend, met a guy and we ended up having a 3 month affair.
My DH found out and the next few weeks/months were understandably a nightmare. I don't want to gloss over what I did at all but ultimately he forgave me and the thing is that the affair is what made him finally wake up and realise how awful he had treated us etc.

He went to counselling (twice) and has made a concerted effort to change his horrible behaviours, there has still been arguments and slip ups from him etc but for the last 9months I can truthfully say there has been massive change and I believe it is genuine. He has apologised for his previous behaviour.

The thing is now that I am out of the fog of it all I just CANNOT get over the way he treated us in the past. It's all I think about. I have flashbacks of behaviour and will cry in the shower or at random times. We get along ok and co-parent well and I like his company but more as a friend. I don't think I love him anymore and he knows this but wants to try really hard to keep us together. He would be devastated if I left, he is being very patient waiting for me to process it all.

Besides his past behaviour, he is good with sharing the load with regards to kids and housework, he probably does more than me, he's thoughtful, he just wants to make me happy and will do anything to do that (people that don't know our history think he is an amazing husband and have always told me how jealous they are).

I believe us being together is the best thing for the kids but I can't help how I feel.
I'm just so stuck on the past and counselling is not really helping me.

How can he have done that to us? Did he hate us that much? I just want to know why??? Why when your wife repeatedly asked, begged you to change or go to counselling etc would you just ignore them. And NOW he is sorry and willing to change but I think the damage has been done.

Has anyone ever come back from something like this?

What about your son?

How's your DS doing after being abused?

He's fine. He's a normal teenager but now he's nearly as big as his dad and argues back, sometimes more maturely.
He tells me he has a good relationship with his dad but I guess he doesn't know any better.

And just for the record part of my counselling is due to the guilt I have for staying as long as I have so please don't beat me up too much about it.
I hate myself for it and don't think I'll bet forgive myself. I know I should have left years ago and wish I did, I wish I had left when it began and then at its worst but now part of me is wondering how do I leave him when he's at his (nearly) best and trying so hard?

He is not sorry nor is willing to change, this is really who he is.

What you describe is emotional and pyschological abuse of many years standing. He targeted you really and saw some quality within you he can and has indeed exploited to his own ends. He used the kids and threats of suicide (note that he is still here so he used that as a tactic in his arsenal against you) against you effectively. It worked for him doing that and knew your weak points all too well, he is truly the lowest of the low. He would have to find another target to abuse and otherwise exploit if you left and that would take work and time, work he does not want to do. He likes having you about as a non equal to him because he has you really where he wanted you all along.

Abusive people also can often appear quite plausible to those in the outside world and secrecy also drives abuse too. His actions are about power and control, it was always about power and control to him and he wanted and still holds over you. Such men too hate women, all of them. He would have acted the self same regardless of whom he targeted. He met you also when you were in your late teens when you also had no real life experience behind you thus easier to exploit. If in the event your home life was less than great as well at that time, this would have also made him more attractive.

What did you learn about relationships when you were growing up, did your father treat your mother the same?.

What do you get out of this relationship now?. What is in this for you still?. You are thoroughly conditioned by him and remain in a FOG like state, this is partly why you're wondering if anyone can or has come back from this. The answer to that question is no.

You are still very much in the FOG re him mainly because you are still with him - and you have stayed for your own reasons. Those are nothing to do with the kids and surely they deserve to learn better lessons on relationships. This remains a terribly heavy burden to place upon them and the template they have been shown is dysfunctional and warped. You are likely to be codependent in relationships yourself and by being there at all you are further enabling him. Even seeing your eldest being abused by this individual was not in itself enough for you to make you leave him. You're very much traumatised by him and I would think that you would be diagnosed now with PTSD. That's what he has done to you, the damage done to your own kids is itself incalculable and the effects of all this on them will probably come out more when they embark on their own relationships as adults.

Such men hate women, all of them and in particular his own mother.
He does this also because he can, he feels entitled to act abusively and his protestations of sorry now are frankly not good enough. You and he should not be together under any circumstances. He will continue to act as he has always done.

Joint counselling is NEVER recommended where there is abuse of any type within the relationship. Abusive people do not willingly if ever attend any counselling sessions.

What sort of counselling are you having currently?.

Have you ever spoken to Womens Aid and the Rights of Women organisations?. You need to consider speaking to them if you have not already done so. What about your GP re your own mental health arising from your traumatic state now?. You having PTSD as a result of his abuses is a real possibility.

It is only when you are away from him will you actually start to realise the full extent to which you and your child have been abused by this person. Your own recovery from his abuses of you and in turn your kids will not start until you are completely separated from him.

Why would you at all want to come back from something like this?. Coercive control like he has shown you all is a crime.

And what about the other 2 kids? How do they feel about staying?

You've become thoroughly conditioned to this and traumatised as a result of his abuses of you and in turn your kids. I very much doubt sadly that your eldest will emerge at all unscathed emotionally from seeing his mother be abused by his father. He probably has a good relationship with his father because he is walking on eggshells around him as well. He fears him just as you do.

Its not too late for you to leave him and it will only be too late to do so when you are yourself dead. You have a choice still re this man, your children do not.

Why is him "trying" more important than the years of abuse and what he's chosen to do to you all as a family? Wouldn't your compassion be better placed with your children and yourself?

You struggle with your guilt for staying - there's no redemption in him becoming better than he was, while the abuse still goes on but reduced. Pouring more years and your dc's childhoods into it. Your son arguing back and his size relevant in his relationship with his father. He knows what you want to hear from him about his dad. Crikey, we know what you want to hear, so does he.

Thanks for the replies so far.

I honestly think in my heart I want to leave but for some reason I feel like I need 'permission' because as I said, he's so much better now and hates himself for what he put us through, I feel like I'd be a horrible person for leaving him now when he's finally sought help rather than if I'd left him earlier.
And yes, I can hear how that sounds.

I'm a smart, logical person and sometimes I can't understand how all this even happened, how I let it happen.
He's also become the husband I've always asked him to be, so how do I finally get what i want, what I've always asked for and THEN I leave?
My head is an absolute mess.

For the record, I don't think the abuse still happens, sometimes he'll raise his voice or start on about something but I let him know he's overstepping a line and he stops.
But that in itself can be emotionally tiring because I'm always on guard and it feels like it's up to me to tell him how to regulate his emotions.

OP, you are STILL putting his needs first! “I can’t leave now that he’s trying to be good”.
It doesn’t matter if he’s turned into a clone of Santa Claus and Mother Theresa, all that matters is whether this relationship works for YOU.
If he’s genuinely remorseful and improved, great - he’s learned lessons and he can try to be decent in a new relationship with some other “lucky” woman.
He doesn’t get to keep you as a prize for good behaviour!
OP, please think of yourself and your kids. Do what’s best for you and them, leaving him out of the equation. No relationship will be healthy if it’s based purely on pity and obligation.

Sometimes it's too little too late, op. Chip away at a stone enough and eventually it'll crumble. You've really tried, you don't owe him any more of your life.

I think you're right Category12, a bit too little too late.

Bumping this as I'm wondering if anyone else has been through something similar?

I have. I left. Best thing I ever did. The love had gone, but - worse - so too had the liking and the respect. He broke it.

I think he may just be on good behaviour while he is unsure of your intentions.
His behaviour might change for the worse when your eldest son leaves home and he feels you have less support. Don’t risk it.

People like that rarely change. And the fact he treated your own child that way should have given you ammunition to leave.

Well I think I have my answer now.
He started a conversation with me last night about the future of our relationship. He knows I'm struggling and why and that means I'm being quite distant and in-affectionate towards him which is upsetting to him.

Amongst the conversation we got onto the topic of our oldest DS and I brought up one particular incident which has always stayed with me as it was quite intense and scary and he trotted out the line (like he always used to) that "it was obliviously just discipline that got out of hand"
I said that it was such a bad incident it was one that I keep having flashbacks of and he said that he can't even remember and he "doubts that he would ever target a child for no reason"

So after that I knew that I can't keep living with him while he continues to deny his wrongdoing, he said he knows he messed up and he's so much more mature now and doing heaps better, which I acknowledge, but if he can't remember the past behaviour that continues to haunt me then how can he fully change/heal?

He can't. He hasn't changed if he thinks it's acceptable to let "discipline get out of hand" and can dismiss it so casually.

Please teach your children that this isn't what relationships are supposed to be (couple, and family wise).

It's quite chilling that he said he "doubts that he would ever target a child for no reason" - that means he thinks it's OK for things to get out of hand if there's a reason excuse. There's never a good enough reason for that. There just isn't.

Please use this conversation as your kick in the bum to break free of the inertia and guilt and split with him. At base, he still thinks his behaviour was justified/justifiable.

Sorry to bump this but I have nowhere else to get out my thoughts and it really helps to write it out, like my diary (that he can't read)

After my last post we discussed things and he said 'it's pretty much over isn't it?' I said yes and he was in a stroppy mood for the next two days. He also told me he was looking at other accommodation.
Since yesterday though there's been no mention of it and I can tell he's trying to be more patient with the kids etc (doing what I want him to not displaying old behaviours) so I know from past experience if I don't bring it up he never will and we'll just keep going until next time or I will have to keep on insisting he leave which will break his heart and make me out to be the 'bad guy'.

There's nothing ultimately wrong with things as they are now, everything is amicable it's all the past stuff that bothers me.
Also my best friend has just told me that she's also thinking of separating and if my DH knows this he will tell me I'm only doing it because she is 🙄

He's not trying to be more patient. He's trying to look like he's being more patient. Until he sees that your resolve is broken, then he will go back to being the arsehole he really is.

Pashola, read back your previous post.

And sorry, but what the fuck does it matter if he says you're the bad guy or that you're copying a friend?! It's just more manipulation.

What he says doesn't matter. He knows what he did. He's only changed on the surface, underneath he thinks the same and you know that.

He abused you and your son. Leave him.

You need to start taking control. Go and talk to a solicitor and find out what you need to do next, what options you have. Schedule dates to talk to him. Ask him every X amount days as to how he’s getting on house hunting. When he’ll know etc. Start to pin him down to dates otherwise he’ll brush it under the carpet

You don’t need his permission to separate, he doesn’t need to do something ‘bad’ again before you can separate, and it doesn’t matter why he thinks your separating (your friend for example), it’s actially none of his business.... you can leave him, just because you want to.. you don’t have to justify anything.

Well he moved out 6 weeks ago as a trial separation.
He's living somewhere at the moment that he is unable to have the kids at but we have been mostly amicable and he sees the kids when he wants and still contributes to taking them to their sports etc

In those six weeks he continues to ask me if I know where I stand and if this will work between us, he switches between loving and frustrated. Sometimes we'll have an argument then later on he's messaging me saying how much he misses me and wants to hold me etc

Tonight we were somewhere with the kids and our youngest DS7 was being a bit of a pain, DH was handling it well, not raising his voice and keeping calm, it was a nice change for him, then when DS kept going DH said to him "I'm going to stop coming around to see you and only come to see the other two (DS's)" poor DS was devastated and sobbed his heart out.

Then when we're home later he's asking if I want a cuddle (no!) then he goes home and messages me asking about our relationship status again and if we'll work things out.

I can tell he's all over the place and I feel like I owe it to him and the kids to try harder but I think I'm completely done.
I have no idea how I'll manage financially on my own but my head can't take it anymore.

But he's out and that's great, that's your first step done. Now at least you have more control over what happens next. Have you looked into finances, benefits etc properly yet? It sounds like you're going to need to start pushing things forward, this limbo isn't good for anyone so I would be concentrating on sorting out practicalities/legalities and finances. Start chipping away at the obstacles standing in the way of properly ending things so you can start to move on.

It's as if he has read a book called "how to manipulate until I get what I want" then I can go back to my old behaviours. You don't love him, his past behavior has put paid to that. Well rid I think.

Why do you owe it to him to try harder? It sounds like you've tried and tried and he is still being horrible to your dc!

Honestly, why are you putting up with him? It's not the best thing for anyone, surely you can see that?