I don’t know whether to go no contact with my Dad.

[MultipleMum5]

My dad has had an anger problem all of his life. He screamed at me as a teenager, in my twenties, and last week told me to f*ck off several times when I challenged him about the way he speaks to my children. He has often told them off in a very angry manner and made them cry, and reminds me so much of how I was dealt with as a child.

He has treated my mum the same way over the years, ‘flipping’ for no reason and not speaking to her for days until he’s over one of his episodes. She has never challenged him, because he will not confront his behaviour. He was abused as a child, and it is clear that he has a lot of issues because of this, and for this reason I feel really sorry for him :-(.

But like I said it came to a head last week when he snapped at my 6yo for no reason(he wasn’t even being naughty in this instance)- I said later on that I wanted to chat to him about how he speaks to my kids, but he flew into a rage. A few days later he came round to apologise, but said it was because of my children’s challenging behaviour that he speaks to them the way he does, that he doesn’t have an anger problem, that I should ‘shelve’ my feelings about how he has talked to us all before and again brought up the abuse he suffered, playing the victim in all of this, I feel.

It’s happened so many times over the years, these episodes where he just flips. I just can’t do it anymore. But I love him and I love my mum- although I’m also cross with her too because for the most part, she defends his behaviour saying he’s screwed up inside.

I know I need time and space but don’t know how when I’m so angry and hurt with him. He has said he will go to his gp which my mother is clinging to.

I must add that he has also done a lot of good things for me over the years, and I know in his own way that he loves me, I just can’t get over what comes out of his mouth during these fits of rage

Your situation sounds so similar to mine, I literally just made a thread about my Dad. Yes you should go NC. I know there is a lot of guilt, I feel guilt too because there are times when he’s been nice, but no one has the right to shout/scream at you it is extremely traumatic.

last week told me to fck off several times when I challenged him about the way he speaks to my children.*

Just this was enough. Two options

1. Tell him if he ever so much as raises his voice at them or speaks to you like that again you want nothing more to do with him

1. Go NC

I sympathise. Both take courage and strength but you deserve better.

Like practically all abusers your dad is still refusing to take responsibility for his actions and his apology is anything but. Its really another empty gesture from him as is any forthcoming visit of his to the GP (he won't go there). Its all excuses from him and in turn your mother. Not all people who were abused as children go onto abuse as adults; he took the low road and simply repeated what he already knew. Such men too hate women, all of them.

As for he having an anger problem, well he does but not in the way you think. A dangerous misconception is that abusers should attend anger management classes. Domestic abuse is not about an abusers inability to contain their anger but rather their deliberate use of anger to control their victim. If we choose to enrol an abuser onto an anger management course we simply give them additional controlling skills. He can probably control himself to an extent around other people and does not behave like this in public.

Abusers will often minimise their abuse by downplaying the severity of their abuse of its impact, by blaming others or denying that they have done anything wrong. They are also likely to use any children as a method of preventing their victim from leaving them by threatening to harm them, abduct them or get them taken into care.

It also looks like he used DARVO against you as well - this stands for "Deny, Attack, and Reverse Victim and Offender." The perpetrator or offender may Deny the behaviour, Attack the individual doing the confronting, and Reverse the roles of Victim and Offender such that the perpetrator assumes the victim role and turns the true victim or the whistle blower into an alleged offender. This occurs, for instance, when an actually guilty perpetrator assumes the role of "falsely accused" and attacks the accuser's credibility and blames the accuser of being the perpetrator of a false accusation.

Your mother chooses to remain with your dad, her husband, for her own reasons. She has continued to put him before you here and has acted as his enabler. I would actually be disinclined to see either of them again given how they have and continue to behave. She may never leave him.

These people were not good parents to you when you were growing up and fundamentally they have not changed. They are not good role models of grandparents to your kids either.

I would find support for your own self and talking to NAPAC may be a good starting point for yourself.

Abusive people are not nasty all the time because if they were no-one would want to be with them.

The "good" he has done does in no way outweigh the bad; what you saw from him and see to this day is the cycle of abuse and that nice/nasty cycle is a continuous one.

You will need to grieve ultimately for the relationship you should have had rather than the one you actually got. You owe both parents here nothing and they do not deserve to have you or your children in their lives.

He also has a problem with anger, your anger when you rightly call him out on his unreasonable behaviours.

Batterers may wrongfully identify their victim as being "provoking" when, in fact, it is the abuser's own frustration caused by his sense of losing control over the victim that pushes his buttons.

I'd warn him sternly 'I warn you, do not every speak to my children like that again. They are not your children, they are mine and I will not have you speak to them like that. I mean it'.

If they speak that way to you again, you go no contact.

I think you should at least keep your kids away from him

You could try going low contact for a while. That might give you the space to decide whether you want to go nc or not.

Low contact often leads to no contact and it appears that you are not getting anything positive from this relationship in any event. History is repeating itself and this time around your kids have been in his firing line. You would not have tolerated this at all from a friend, family members are no different.

Funny how abusive behaviour can be tolerated until it is turned on to our children.
I could be wrong, but it doesn’t sound like you are ready to go nc. Maybe another frank discussion about his behaviour is needed.
You understand that he was abused as a child HOWEVER, that does not give him the right to abuse you or your children.
Make boundaries clear- if voices are raised or there is aggressive behaviour, you leave.
Talk to your children too and reassure them that they have done nothing wrong and certainly not caused this reaction.

Thankyou all for your responses to my original post.

Things are still no better. He did go to his gp, and was referred for anger management. He went to one session. They went for one session at relate and my mother said they discussed everything- the therapist pointed out his abusive behaviour which my mum says she was very shocked by- she says she just thought it was ‘the way he is’ and not abuse. The therapist apparently felt it wasn’t necessary to see them for another session (i don’t understand this as I know relate sessions can go on for some time) and referred my dad on for anger management.

My mother has been in regular phone contact telling me how sorry he his, that it’s different now, ‘he’s never been sorry before’. She’s almost acting as his defence barrier and it’s driving me crackers. Asking ‘what can he do to make it up to you’. I’m so tearful all the time and want to move on but don’t know how. I feel like I am in a period of grieving. She is cold with me when I don’t say the things she wants to hear- which is clearly that I’ve forgiven all and ready to move on. I don’t know what to do, I feel like I’m not strong enough for no contact, but contact with them is just a big head f*ck at present.

Worst of all we had booked a family holiday all together with them next week and I am dreading it.

Wow. I"d go grey rock on him.

Ie, a birthday card. A xmas card. NO dramatic announcement that he can feel martyred by or launch a smear campaign against you off the back of a decision to go NC. If he texts leave it a day to come back with a bland platitude.

But you give him nothing. Grey.

I'd cancel the holiday to be honest...or be as unavailable as possible so you're not doing activities with him around. If you can't cancel the holiday, is there any way that the company/location you're going to could reschedule your holiday for a different date, preferably one where he isn't available to attend?

You've got to stand up for your kids in a way that he clearly doesn't know how to.

Good luck

You could say to your mum that she has been conditioned to accept that his behaviour is normal but it isn't and for the safety of her grandchildren, you are not going to allow them to be around him. You will stay in touch with her but if she so much as mentions him to you or them, you'll have to reconsider that too. She needs to see that it isn't normal behaviour and if the result is that she cajoles your Dad to keep going to anger management therapy because if she doesn't, she doesn't get to spend time with her grandchildren, then so be it.

Your mum should have protected you from his abuse as you grew up. Instead she chose to protect him and excuse him. Please don't make the same mistake as her. Protect your children because he ultimately will not change and your mother will always protect him and excuse his behaviour. Only you can change this cycle of anger/abuse.

They went for one session at relate and my mother said they discussed everything- the therapist pointed out his abusive behaviour ... The therapist apparently felt it wasn’t necessary to see them for another session

That will be because Relate/ relationship counselling is not recommended when a partner is abusive. It wasn't that it wasn't necessary. It's that it wasn't appropriate and they needs more than Relate to fix this.

As per pp, Relate did the right thing by ending the joint counselling - it's wholly inappropriate where there is abuse. It absolutely doesn't mean there's no problem. Your dad is the problem.

That’s what I thought, about the counselling. My mum dressed it up that they’d ‘resolved everything’ 😞

I think I’m going to have to distance myself.

The trouble with no contact is that it does not remove the person from your life, you can still be left with a lot of sadness, can miss them and it makes it very difficult to maintain mutual relationships.

Could you have a think about what rules you want to put in place- that he completes the anger management course for starters, that he understands that as soon as he raises his voice you will leave etc? Have the relationship on your terms. And very well done for standing up for yourself and your children. I grew up with parents who used their anger as a weapon and I know how hard it is to go against that.

OP I can feel the sadness in your post. I've never been in this situation and it sounds as if you would struggle with NC or not quite ready for it?

If this is the case, I would give him the warnings suggested above (if you raise your voice to me or my DC) then you will not see them again. Would that make NC any easier - the fact that you gave him clear consequences and he chose to behave in that way? Maybe explain that his behaviour is abusive and how it made you feel. I think it easy for everyone to say go NC but it's your life, do what's best for you

OK so what do you need from him in order to feel (at least currently) that he takes responsibility for his actions and won't repeat them. (Sorry is 'almost' irrelevant as words are easy)
For example if he said
'I'm sorry, I was out of order, it is up to me to control my temper and it is never alright to shout at my daughter's children'

If this, or a variation, would alleviate your immediate issues then tell him or your mum this but stress it can't come from her; it has to be from him in person (or phone if YOU prefer).

"You then respond with your conditions eg 'OK actions speak louder than words so I accept your apology on the following conditions.

1 If you ever have an issue with something the kids have done/are doing then you come and talk to me about it
2 If you ever lose your temper with them again then THAT IS IT --- END OF.

3 You never try and blame me or my children for YOU losing your temper.

If you can confirm that these are reasonable conditions for a parent to have for adults having contact with their children, then I suggest we have a trial period where we attempt to rebuild a relationship."

If not - then we know where we stand and why.

Obviously the wording is up to you, these are only suggestions but cover what I would expect in these circumstances.

If he is genuinely sorry this could be a way to move on. If he isn't - well you will know very quickly

My dad is just like this. Exactly the same. If someone does anything he disagrees with he gives them the silent treatment for days/weeks until the explosion comes. This never happens in front of anyone. So nobody witnesses the vile things he says. He stores every misdemeanour you’ve ever had to never stop beating you about the head with it. When confronted he denies his behaviour or turns it around on whoever confronts him. He lies, he tried to divide the family.
Yet .... when he chooses to be he’s kind, funny, generous. It’s like living on eggshells. I’m 44 years old and I still crave the funny side of him.
I’ve learned that these 2 sides to him are a conscious thing. He chooses to behave like this. He also was abused as a child. That is absolutely terrible and breaks my heart but it’s no excuse at all. My blinkers recently fell off when he said something about my young nephew and I knew that was going to be stored and thrown at him at some stage. I don’t have my own children, I will do anything to protect the other children in the family.
I’ve gone low contact and I feel terrible about it in some ways but so much better that I’m not being manipulated and bullied any more

He sounds like he endures emotional unstable personality disorder .. as he ever had any support with his mental health , more so because of the abuse he endured as a child . However regardless of what issues he endured you cannot allow that onto your children ... whether he is nice 70 per cent of the time .. I'm sure he is sorry and loves you dearly but if he does not address these issues I wouldn't have him around the children or yourself .. its negative behavior and very unhealthy for yourself ..

If you don't set your stall out he will continue to have these episodes and maybe not seeing him for a while will give him a wake up call to sort himself out