Disagreed with boyfriend over Stacey Dooley row

[SkisonW]

I don’t know if this is ridiculous or too extreme but it’s left me feeling really rubbish.

For context, I am non white and my boyfriend is white. I agree with David Lammy’s comments. My boyfriend thinks there are bigger issues than this for him to focus on, including bigger race issues. We had quite a big argument about it yesterday. He seems happy to just love on and forget about it whereas it’s left me deeply uncomfortable.

This is not the first time we’ve talked about race/racism and I’ve always found him quite insensitive about it. Even when we disagree, I don’t find him open or willing to hear or learn from my perspective. He says I offer no room for him to disagree and that I just want to browbeat him into my Side.

He has a very white left wing friendship group and yesterday I said I thought he lived in his own echo chamber of people in do gooding professions but who had little real understanding of issues and he’s taken massive offence to this understandably. But it’s how I feel.

Im starting to think we are just too far apart on issues that are close to me to ever come together.

You know your own mind OP. If you are not able to accept that he has different opinions and perspective, then you will be constantly arguing and constantly offended.

I can give you a short cut in an important life lesson. Arguements are not conducive to people listening to each other nor do they lead to people changing their minds. They cause anger and upset.

David Lammy does a lot of good as an MP and Stacey Dooley does a lot of good as a celebrity. Both will make mistakes and errors of judgement. Sometimes it takes the passage of time to see that.

Why don’t you just agree they both do good and they both have good intentions.

Do you listen to his views though?

Sometimes the key thing is to be able to listen but then agree to disagree. You don’t have to always agree with your oartner

Lemon nailed it.

If this is a deal breaker for you - then decide that.

But life is full of opinions. It will be hard for you if you can’t allow in nuance and difference.

Sorry OP but I think the issue is with you if you can't agree to disagree.

For what it's worth I can see both points of view but come down on Dooley's 'side'. She is the one out there raising awareness. If he doesn't like her way of doing this then instead of criticising her he should 'crack on' and raise awareness himself‽

Have you ever talked about race or racism outside of an argument?

Maybe it’s worth sitting down and having a chat about how you feel about certain things, in a calm/neutral environment, and not prompted by an external event. It might allow you both to explore each other’s views and reasons for them in a more positive way.

I'm in danger of repeating things that are already on the lengthy thread on this in AIBU but @Carpe he was actually criticising Comic Relief's outdated attitude that they were slated for last year and yet continue to follow. He (rightly in my opinion) points out that CR continue to do precisely what they have done for years in sending over celebs to Africa and take these photos. Why have they never, in all their years, engaged with African people to get them to present their stories themselves? Why don't they get African people who have benefited from CR to make films? Use African celebrities?

CR put out a tweet saying they offered Lammy the chance to make a film himself but they never heard from him. This is also a lie. He had two meetings with them and said why he wouldn't do it.

I'm on your side tbh. You can't make him care about the specific issue the way you do, but he should at least acknowledge the problems here. Nor is it just down to you to back down on a difference of opinion or to unquestioningly listen to him. You mentioned his friendship group. Is he one of those with the mindset that they're good, so anything they think and say is automatically right and good therefore any disagreement with them is bad?

I'm sorry I disagree with people here who are saying it's just a disagreement. I'm married to a non-white person but am white myself. I would always listen first on an issue like this and express opinions circumspectly. The reason is that I don't have first hand experience of the racist structures in society - hell I may even be unwittingly perpetuating them through my thoughts/actions because I've been brought up in them without them personally affecting me. So although I'll express an opinion I will always stand corrected where he can show me how the mainstream way of thinking isn't working for everyone in society.

In this case, let's see what people would say if it wasn't about race but about me too - what if you had a disagreement with your husband about Harvey Weinstein or Ryan Adams where he just couldn't see your perspective or how the women in those situations feel. I think people would think you'd be right to be unsettled and feel that some aspect of your experience was being denied. I don't know if you'll get a balanced response on here OP but what I would say is that if someone is making you feel uncomfortable in yourself you don't have to stay with them, no matter how liberal and left wing they seem to be. You shouldn't have to explain how racism affects you, your family or others around you to your closest loved one, they should be taking up the fight with and for you.

FWIW I love Stacey Dooley and I do think David Lammy was jumping on a bandwagon which leaves a bad taste in my mouth, but that doesn't make him wrong. In fact, he's probably right. Bit of a case of two messengers shooting eachother at dawn...

DL clearly disagrees with comic relief. My issue with him is that he is using SD as a convenient person to have a go at.

I saw several interviews with him yesterday and while I take the 'white saviour' point, he could have done something himself. But he didn't.

I also dont think he would have been making such an issue if it was a white Male celebrity.

I also dont think white celebrities should be made to feel they cant do work to help.

As the day went on DLs comments were lore aimed at comic relief. But the early morning interview on GMB, was a bit rambling and more aimed at SD.

So I am on the fence. I totally accept both points of views. It sounds like neither of you want to listen and understand each others points. Which wont make a good a relationship.

he could have done something himself. But he didn't.

What should he have done then @Tennessee?

There is a certain type of left wing male who will trample over every opinion that isn't his. If you've got one of those then run.
OTOH, no one ever changes their view in an argument. All that happens is each person is do determined to 'win' that views become entrenched.
If you feel he doesn't ever listen or respect your opinion then that is a big warning sign.
Can you honestly say that you listen and respect his pov too? Only you can honestly say -we don't know enough to tell you.

It's very hard to tell from just your OP but it seems like it might be six of one and half a dozen of another.

If he's saying you don't give him any space to disagree and discuss then it does sound like you expect to have the dominant opinion in the argument.

I appreciate it's a nuanced situation as he is white and you are non-white, but I don't think you can use that as top trumps to invalidate his perspective.

I think you probably both need to listen to and respect each other's views, although he should have some sensitivity around this particular topic and awareness that it's something more personal to you.

I’ve got to say that whilst I don’t feel white men need to be championed, I do think stereotyping does. A few PPs are doing that quite nicely with the “one of those” and the “certain type”. But then the OP did go there.

Really? Is it ever appropriate to do this ? People are complex and individual. It is just lazy to group and label. Never mind dangerous.

But the thing is Lemon, they do exist. Yes the bf is an individual but look at how women are being silenced by left wing men (usually) over the trans issue, for example. There's a definite group out there who take the view that theirs is the only right one and everyone who deviates has to stfu.
Obviously I don't know if the OP's bf is one of them but she is clearly concerned about his friends and their potential to just be an echo chamber.

I don’t know. This is not the first time we’ve had conversations about race and whilst we agree on fundamentals like racism is bad, people should not be killed when it comes to the more nuanced sides of it i find the way he engages with very difficult. It’s fine if we were friends or acquaintances but I’m not sure I can handle my partner being like this.

He says I’m angry and that I project my anger into him and make him a scapegoat but I really don’t feel that’s true and I feel like he’s basically saying you have a massive chip on your shoulder.

It is not your job to make him understand how racism works. This sounds exhausting. If he can't have empathy for an experience that doesn't apply to him, I wouldn't waste time on it.

well, the last thing you should be is an angry black woman, hmm, OP? No-one wants that .

It sounds like you could be too far apart on this very important point to progress, OP, but only you know that. I don't know much about this incident but I think DL is right and I'm not a fan of Comic Relief (for other reasons).

Also red flag being told you're angry when you make a point about how things affect you. Have you read Chimananda Ngozie Adichie's book to her daughter? It is all about this. It's ok to be angry about racism.

What should he have done then@Tennessee?

Gine himself?

Are you going out with a lefty woke bro?

In which case I'd give up because you'll quickly find he is more right on, anti-rascist, feminist and generally woke about all causes than you are.

He says I offer no room for him to disagree and that I just want to browbeat him into my Side.

Is this true? I know I can do that at times when I have greater knowledge on a subject.

I also think that yesterday's events have been blown up out of all proportion.

I sense there's more to this though, this isn't a one off disagreement, or he has other views that don't sit comfortably with you.

Michelle Obama talks a lot about how she wasn't to appear as an Angry Black Woman when she was on the campaign trail. Wouldn't want to upset white people, would she?

@Tennesseewhiskey

But isn’t that his point? If he went, what would a photo of a black British MP holding a Ugandan child do to “promote voices from across the continent of Africa”?

At the end of the day the reason comic relief fly the celebs over is because it brings the money in. Money that is used for good works.

Of course it is a sad indictment of our society that we need the celebrity interest to do this but at the end of the day you will achieve precisely nothing with no resources to do it.

It is interesting that DL is making a race issue out of this as then I am forced to presume he has no problem with rich celebrities visiting africa for photshoots if they are black? I think it is tilting at windmills personally and doesn't address the much more damaging celebrity obsession we have.

I also don't think that blaming whole groups of people based on their race is a helpful way of building consensus and a better more tolerant society.