Can it be saved or have we just run out of road?

[BranchingOut]

I am in my early forties and have been with my DH for a long, long time. 20+ years. Married. We have one child, primary age, who is everything to us. He is a very driven high earner and I have a modestly-paid but socially useful PT job. We have a beautiful home in a lovely location and no real financial worries. He is ambitious, highly articulate, confident and a highly-organised problem-solver. I am also articulate, creative, care about social issues but am not quite so organised!

When our child was 1 year old we had a big marital crisis, where he said that he was having serious doubts about the relationship, various issues and wasn't sure if he wanted to be with me any more. This was a very bleak time - at the time I had a baby, no job, no childcare and no family support. He did not speak to me for 11 days and withdrew all affection for a further five months. He eventually turned towards me again and we reconciled. I found it hard to forgive, but eventually we put it behind us. I am summarising massively here, of course.

Fast forward to this year and he has been under a lot of stress - think director/major investor role in a big company with insolvency on the cards. It had the potential to lose quite a bit of our own money, not to mention the disaster for the employees....I have been supportive, listened to him talking about the problems night after night etc.

At the end of the summer we had a row, over a disastrous day-trip - not that it really matters! But the same pattern emerged all over again. He said some pretty horrible things, raised a number of issues, froze me out and all affection ceased. We haven't had sex since one slightly bizarre encounter a few days after the row.

We are still living fairly well together. Sharing a bed. Co-parenting. Talking about day-to-day matters. We have since had two family holidays together and I had hoped that they would trigger a reconciliation, but nothing.

This period has coincided with a significant period of work pressure for me, requiring me to be on top form in a new role. I haven't wanted to unleash the emotional upset that would be let loose by bringing up this issue, or set free a huge storm before Christmas, so have mostly left it to lie.
His work matters have now been more or less resolved and the company saved from insolvency. Still some risks, but he has the potential to do fairly well out of the new status quo.

His issues are:

I don't earn or contribute enough
I don't do enough for us as a couple
I am overweight/unfit
His life is monotonous

By the way, I am deliberately not putting my counter arguments to those points. I have them. But, at the end of the day, that is his point of view and explains his feelings.

My own issues are:

I want to be loved, not just tolerated.
None - I am happy and feel very lucky with my life

In his mitigation:

He experienced trauma as a very young child, carried some shame from this as he grew up in a small community and had a lot of pressure to 'do well' financially. There are background reasons for him being as he is.

I would love everything to be as it was before, but I am teetering on the brink of separating. Perhaps even just living separately and co-parenting within the same house. Does anyone have experience of this? We also own another small property so could feasibly try out a 'nesting' arrangement. Yes, financials are having a big influence on me there - not to mention the fear of what kind of an opponent he could be in a divorce.

He seems quite happy to carry on in this limbo and is trying to make joint plans for 2019 . He has turned down two offers to reconcile and, more recently, a couple of invitations to have 'just sex' - from me of course, not some random woman .

But on the other hand, I indulge in fantasy of a man who loves and desires me. I need love. I need that extra element in my life. I am still attractive and look a bit younger than I am - is the time to leave now? On the other hand, deep breath, I am also very tempted to keep the status quo but perhaps look for something discreet outside the marriage.

My next step is to have one last try, perhaps seeing a solicitor beforehand. But I thought I would first see what the wisdom of MN could offer.

bump

Please don't keep 'begging'.
You've tried.
Quite a bit.
It is needy and very unattractive.
Time to detach.
You could try living separately but co-parenting in the same house.
Do you have a spare room?
I'd be moving in there as a first step.
Please engage a solicitor.
Find out what you can about finances.
Assets, wages, pensions, savings.
Offering just sex, is pretty degrading.
Time to hold your head high and be indifferent now.
Do you have a hobby that can take you out of the house a bit?
Go away at weekends to visit family or friends?
Disengaging is the way forward. Not more trying and pleading.
You deserve better and you know it.
Don't let this be the relationship model that your poor DC copies into adult life!

Your most sensible suggestion to your own self here is to seek further legal advice. You do not have to act on it immediately but knowledge is power. No more re trying with this man, he has already turned down reconciliation twice before now.

If you are on the brink of separating then I would make the break and make it a clean break too in terms of divorcing him. None of this about being separated and parenting within the same house nor seeking sexual thrills outside the marriage whilst you are still married (particularly that one because that is a really bad idea and will bring with it a whole new level of pain). You really do not need such further complications nor sending out mixed messages. I have seen many examples of separating and parenting within the same house on MN and more often that not that situation does not work out at all well. The couple ends up separating down the line (and in some cases far less amicably), do not become that couple who struggle on for years mainly for the kids knowing that it was really over years beforehand. They know and they do not say thanks to either parent.

He may well have had a crappy childhood but its a reason, not an excuse or any sort of mitigation for the things he has said to you about your own self. He may well become even more nasty (he has indeed said some pretty low things to you about your own self already and how did you challenge such assertions?) and/or adversarial in the event of divorce but that does not mean to say that you should say with him because of this either.

What exactly happened when your child was but one year of age?. Do you think he had his head turned by another woman then, reading what you wrote about that time did make he think that he had met someone else. I am sorry if I am wrong here.

What are you getting out of this relationship now?. It all looks nice on the surface but deep down your relationship with him is pretty much non existent. Would you say you have stayed till now primarily because of your child?.

What do you want to teach your DC about relationships and what is this young person learning from the two of you about same?. Is this the model of a relationship you want to be showing them, for them to believe that yes this is how people treat others in a relationship?. If you would not want your DC to have a relationship like this as adults it is understandable. Its not good enough for you either.

Be brave and seek legal advice re your situation.

Thanks for your response - I haven't begged or pleaded. I have simply asked on two occasions in nearly five months if it is possible for us to be reconciled. Some of the advice I have had from friends has been to 'try talking' - so that was me giving it a try.

The sex - well, it's been a long time and I fancied it that day. Is it more degrading to have no strings sex with my husband than with a stranger?

My child is, thankfully, oblivious. Family members (who see us several times a week) have been oblivious until I eventually let it slip.

The problem is not out in the open, it is buried in the inner workings of our relationship.

Friends though know you and can be over invested. You've tried talking to him and he does not really want to know here. He wants to bury his head in the sand about this marriage.

Your libido ebbs and flows here; I think you have far more things to think about that are more important here other than your sex life or lack thereof. And what is sex with someone outside the marriage going to do to you?. I do not think it would be a good idea for you to potentially become some bloke's affair partner. Affairs generally are symptomatic of problems within the relationship as a whole. Going outside the marriage for sexual thrills is not going to solve anything for you.

I would not think your child is as oblivious as you make out, many adults make that same mistake about their own children not knowing much if anything when they can and do pick up on all the vibes, both spoken and unspoken, within the home and outside of it. Sound also travels.

Would you consider counselling on your own in the (perhaps likely) event he would not attend any such sessions?.

In general I have really good self-esteem and a very strong sense of who I am. I am not reliant on him - I have parenting, work, friends, reading, my personal projects...But we have been together a very, very long time and a large part of me cannot draw up a picture of what life would look like without him.

I did challenge his issues, but it is as if he can't 'hear' what I say around these specific issues. For a highly logical man, he becomes very irrational.

At the end of the day, he might be on a men's forum saying my wife is overweight, lazy and a low earner. And that is his point of view! On some levels I don't even care any more what he thinks - I just want to go back to where we were before. Which was fine, as until last summer we were in a pretty good place.

It's not unreasonable to want to be thoroughly loved and cherished. Your partner should bring out the best in you. If they're bringing out the worst then your life may well be better without. Separating isn't fun but life doesn't have to be this way. I've been truly happy since my separation. I'd forgotten how wonderful it is to belly laugh and have fun instead of monotony and coldness.

I wouldn't rule out someone else in the background much as I hate to say it. Comparison is the thief of joy and all that.

on another forum a woman asked her husband to be honest & he was brutally so regarding weight. Maybe your husband has the same issue. So if he is finding your weight an issue maybe you guys can gym or walk together and spend quality time together? That’s if you think you should lose a few pounds. It could be a start to reconnecting/rekindling. I truely hope there is no OW in the picture. Sometimes when men are stressed they look for alternate means of de stressing. Big hugs🌷

I don't earn or contribute enough
I don't do enough for us as a couple
I am overweight/unfit
His life is monotonous

He sounds horribly selfish and uncaring, the list above alone would be the precursor for me to get out of this sham of a relationship, nice house, money, holiday etc would not be enough to be putting up with a man that shuns me whenever the fancy takes him, he seems to think he's a far greater human being than you are when in fact he appears to be a self centred arsehole that thinks it's alright to punish you for things he perceives as pissing him off.

Do it, show him you can manage quite happily without his bloody cash; he's giving you absolutely nothing but yet wanting plenty in return.

He has told you the marriage is over and some months have passed. You’ve suggested reconciling twice and he’s declined.

So... surely the answer is obvious, and it’s over? And there are just the practicalities to sort out now?

You can’t force someone to love you and want to be with you. Whatever his reasons, he’s checked out. Get some legal advice.

Thanks for your post.

I am not getting into whether the issues are true or not. I have disputed these points with him until I am tired of it, but he doesn't 'hear' me. When I have suggested any changes, they are not the 'right' changes.

But, when we got together, he was quite overweight. He was significantly overweight for the first ten years of our relationship. I never, ever mentioned it, as I honestly could not see it. To me, I loved him and he was lovely in himself.

I doubt very much he is on any sort of forum tbh.

Re your comment:-

"His issues are:

I don't earn or contribute enough
I don't do enough for us as a couple
I am overweight/unfit
His life is monotonous"

You work part time, part timers generally earn less money than people who work full time. Does he value money above all else here?. What is he doing here to help you more?. You contribute a hell of a lot; you facilitate his life and also raise his child; is that not important enough to him?. You being overweight; well he is probably no Greek adonis like figure either and people do change weight over the years. As for his life is monotonous, well he is responsible for that state not you. You are not responsible for another person's actions or choices. The more you write about, the more unreasonable and intransigent he sounds. He does not want to hear your point of view, to him its just unnecessary white noise and he in his head thinks he is right. Such men do not change.

You can only change ultimately how you react to him. What happened after this past summer between you?. You will not ever go back to how you both were prior to then also because he does not want to.

That's the thing - he hasn't told me the marriage is over. When I have asked if this is his view, he says I am escalating things unnecessarily.

As far as he is concerned, I just Need. To. Be. Better.

Sorry if I missed this but have you tried single or joint psychology/therapy? Sounds like you’d benefit from talking about this together with a good therapist, so he can hear you?

You both need to commit to a course of action to be either happily married or divorced. To be unhappily married is soul destroying and a waste of your life.

I don’t know if you love him or not. He seems to be saying he doesn’t love you. Both of you are ripe for an affair. What then when it gets exposed? Do you think you can shelter your DD from that? She might be the one to find out. The OP could cause havoc and you might be far more devastated than you could imagine.

He doesn’t like his home life and if his job mitigated that then it might not in the future. His job is precarious and you both over rely on it. You for your lifestyle and him for his relief from that life.

So what’s his reply when you ask to reconcile? If the marriage isn’t over surely he’d be saying ‘wtf, how can we reconcile when we’re together already?’

He’s very much devaluing your contribution especially to child rearing, and the impact on your career. I don’t think that’s uncommon once children are in school, so re-adjustment of beliefs / hearing your views, is essential. If he won’t try, you can’t solve it alone.

OP - I sympathise with your situation.

Am in a similar dilemma - with difference being I am the DH trying hard to engage my DW and failing miserably. DW even suggested an open relationship - which I am not willing to entertain.

DW perfectly happy to carry on as normal - blanking me out and happy to do things without me. She hasn’t worked in 18 years, and whilst at times I have been resentful of that, I have mostly been supportive and suggested she pursues something she is passionate about given we’re on a sound financial footing.

She’s told me that it’s not me, yet I am totally blanked out from her life and interests. I’ve asked her if she would like to separate and she says no. Not willing to engage or talk or do anything that could put things back on track. Like you, I have tried to reconcile but DW just refuses to want to do anything about it. I even suggested whether she was waiting for me to say ‘it’s over’.

I keep thinking about separating as I can’t go on like this, but I have to say - am finding it very difficult to just walk away from a 20+ year relationship. All the harder as DS is sitting finals later this year. I read the thread about being too chicken to make the decision, and it summed me up pretty well. A big part of me still wants it to work. I am struggling to accept that it is - or could be -over, even though neither of us seem happy.

We married young and have changed a lot. Common interests practically nonexistent.

As PPs have said, do not go down the EMA route. It won’t solve the problem. Clearly you have thought things, but just know that the separation is not at all easy either - especially if you have been together 20+ years.

Good luck.

Last summer was the steadily increasing work stress and the daft row about a bad day out that he felt I had not organised properly, which was symptomatic of my lack of effort/care elsewhere in the relationship.

That is honestly it.

I don't think there is an OW.

So he is basically abdicating all responsibility to you then.

No you do not need to be better, you are in all likelihood just fine as you are. How dare he say such awful things about you as well, it is nigh on impossible to get past such things. Show him you can and will indeed manage and thrive without him. Do not further let the sunken costs fallacy here help you keep on making poor relationship decisions.

He sounds abusive op. Withholding affection is abusive.

I use reconcile to mean 'make up'.

Counselling - he has always refused. I have had it before and know more or less what they will say.

I do value all your replies. I feel as if I am coming up to a fork in the road and it is helpful to get your input. Going out for a little while now.

When I have asked if this is his view, he says I am escalating things unnecessarily
He sounds like a controlling knob-head!!!
Please take control of your own life.
This guy will never sort it all out.
You do NOT NEED to be better.
You need to get away from this prick who is bringing you down.
It will chip away at your confidence and your self-esteem.
Don't allow him to do that to you.

Why would you being a low earner impact his love/affection for you? I’m guessing that you weren’t a high earning director of a bank when you met? I think that issue/point is key here. I’d suggest marriage counselling and focus on that point. You say he’s doing well, you are financially secure (as a couple) etc etc...so why is that a factor? Super rich footballers marry women who have nothing. How much money would be enough? I’m guessing none because this isn’t actually a problem, it’s just something to use, an excuse? The withdrawing of affection is symptomatic of something else here. There’s more to this. I think it’s a loss of interest in general. Is he seeing somebody else? At that moment he withdrew for 5 months was there somebody else involved? A work colleague perhaps? I think you need to do more digging here. In my experience, when men stop shagging their willing (and very nice/lovely) wives then they’re getting it elsewhere. Sorry to be so blunt but it’s only with honesty that you’re going to get anywhere with this very confusing state of affairs

As far as he is concerned, I just Need. To. Be. Better.

So it's all your fault? If he doesn't want sex with you, would he agree to an open relationship?