Difficult mother

[MotherOfDragonite]

My mother has always been very negative about me and very critical of everything I do. I have a younger sister and my mother is always making 'helpful suggestions' to her too, but the quality of what she says is more negative/judgmental with me. I now have children (but no partner) and so I have seen quite a lot of her over the past few years. She has occasionally helped me with childcare in an emergency, but mostly just comes at weekends to see us.

Her criticism always bothers me, but over the last couple of years there have been some unforgiveable comments along the lines of "your house is so messy that I could call social services about it". Although it is untidy, this simply isn't true -- I've had the health visitor here, midwife, etc, and with my rational mind I know that although it isn't spotless and we do have a lot of stuff crammed in to a small space, it's not unacceptable (if that makes sense). Each time she has said this I have found it offensive and a bit threatening, and have reduced contact. She has also criticised me in front of the children, which I feel undermines me as a parent, and I felt my DD was getting a bit carried away with feeling as if it was her and Granny against me (e.g. when I told her to get dressed in the morning, "You're always been rude to me and Granny!)

Finally my mother said something similar again, and I then asked her the next time she was due to come round if she could please refrain from criticising as I had a lot of my plate at the moment and couldn't take it (having a relationship crisis plus big deadlines). She reacted badly, so I said in that case I simply couldn't see her.

Since then I have seen her once at my sister's house (which went fine), then once at the weekend for a Christmas performance by one of the kids (lots of little 'suggestions' like that I should really cut DD's fringe, etc, and a few snidey comments about how she didn't want to be "cut off from her grandchildren"), then again today for a nativity play.

Today was a disaster. She turned up, opened my front door (she still has a key) although I'd told her to wait outside as we'd be coming in a second, criticised everything (why hadn't I put an extra coat on the baby? it must be freezing. I really must brush DD's hair, it was terribly messy!) etc and then sat through the nativity play. I bought her a hot chocolate and then on the way back to the bus she started talking about how she "had a right to see her grandchildren" and how she could go to court and get a court order to see them!

Not sure what I want to ask. AIBU? What am I meant to do about Christmas? I don't want to cut her and the kids off, as it's an important relationship for all of them, but it's just all a bit much.

Flying monkey?!

I don't think I can go no contact as it would be too much of a shock for the kids and would also mean we have nobody to spend Christmas with. I am definitely feeling better for having reduced our contact though and will stick to this. There was an afternoon every week where she was going to babysit and I have rearranged things so that I can pay a babysitter instead. And no more staying with us at weekends.

It's stressful though as in a way even low contact means I need to police her behaviour and address anything that isn't ok.

Although weirdly today was totally fine. Maybe because my sister is there and she is trying to present this as something where I am just being irrational because I am stressed, and her behaviour is totally normal?

You can spend christmas with yourselves. It's going to really mess your daughter up what your mother's doing to her. You identified that she's poisoning her against you and saying all kinds of horrible shit to her when you're not there, but you don't seem to realise how serious it is and that the things your daughter will repeat will only be the tip of the iceberg.

I know what it's like to think abuse is normal and that it can be very shocking when people point out that your relationship is deeply abnormal. But it is. And right now, you are inadvertently letting your mother harm your daughter and that is a bigger priority than specific christmas plans you might have made.

I found low contact more stressful as you are seeming to. No contact is sad but a relief overall.

And change your locks!!

Sounds very similar to my parents and I am 5 years NC.

I allowed contact with my children supervised by my husband but after 4 years because they couldn't get everything their own way they took me to court anyway and we are now on our fourth hearing.

How much money does your mum have? I estimate my parents must have spent close to £10,000 to drag me through court and at the moment the contact they have is not as good as what they were getting prior to taking us to court. It's likely to cost them a lot more by the time we're through but the point of this is not anything to do with the children - it's to punish me for not wanting a relationship with them.

Grandparents can apply to get contact but would have to go to mediation first and then they have to apply for permission to make an application. Mediation alone costs £100 a session. The application costs around £600, solicitors cost £150 an hour but some do a flat fee of £400 - £500 per hearing.

That's useful info thanks lampoon.

OP you want your children to have contact with lovely grandparents, we all do. That is not the reality though is it.
I mean this kindly but you really need to educate yourself as to what is really going on here.
She has demonstrated that she IS critical and DID NOT respond well to your heartfelt requests for change. This does not bode well.
Read up on toxic parents, narcissists, FOG (fear, obligation & guilt) and flying monkeys etc. I might be wrong. I hope I am. I don't think I am.
It's not you. It's her. 💐
Insert safe boundaries for you and your DC. She has already introduced dysfunction into your family unit using your DD. Left unfettered she could do untold damage.

What @rinabean said. I couldn't put it any better. I too have been through the tunnel and out the other side, having been NC for almost 10 years now. It was also a shock to me to realise just how abusive and toxic my mother really was and I should have cut her off a decade before that even!

You're just coming round to her behaviour now, realising it's not OK after years of sub consciously doing what she wants you to do. She doesn't get to have a relationship with your DC if she can't behave with you.

Mine didn't want anything to do with me and didn't care two shits we were NC until she found out we have a DD and suddenly she's all.over being s complete asshole.

Leopards don't change their spots and nor do toxic narcissistic parents. Do yourself a favour and read up about these. There's no way in hell mine will ever get to see my DD and I'm fine with that decision. She won't get the chance to poison her.

I don't think she's a narcissist. My grandmother is definitely a narcissist and profoundly dysfunctional as a mother, we've discussed it over the years -- my mother is nothing like her.

A toxic parent, maybe so. I googled and definitely the stuff about criticising, controlling and not respecting boundaries apply.

Do you think it's possible that she's been damaged so much by her own childhood that she's picked up really unhinged ways of relating to us? Can she change???

I know I need to only see her with other people around, basically. I did notice that DD's behaviour with me was worse again though even after only seeing her once and in company.

I will see how the holidays go, and give her a chance to change. I've been pretty specific (and put it in writing) so I don't feel she has any excuse not to acknowledge the problems with her behaviour. Maybe she will take them on board?

I looked at this article on narcissistic parents (www.psychologytoday.com/gb/blog/communication-success/201602/10-signs-narcissistic-parent) and didn't recognise anything in it.

The toxic parent stuff, yes.

I'm worried that my own kids could easily say the same about me though! Surely there's some overlap between normal (flawed) parenting and serious psychological dysfunction sometimes?!

Well I am glad that's not ringing any bells for you. Certainly though your GM could have made your DM quite dysfunctional. The key will be her WILLINGNESS to change, or not.

I really hope she can, it would be so much nicer for all of us. Not sure. She is in her 70s.

I've thought for some time that she suffers from PTSD from how she was treated as a child, plus an unrelated but shocking incident that happened to her a few years ago.

She is so full of stress and cortisol and worry, not just about me and the kids, or even about family generally, but basically about everything in the world ever. Unfortunately she was only ever offered very short-term therapy on the NHS and it was great while it lasted but then without that she soon went back to her normal state of stress.

Got a few hysterical/dramatic texts, but saw her at the weekend at my sister's house and she was very well behaved (as she had been before at my sister's house).

Asked if it she would be happy to pick us up and drop us off on Christmas day (as public transport won't be working and she drives) and got a really snotty "Well, I don't mean to be inflammatory at Christmas, but I'm not sure I should pick somebody up who won't allow me in their house".

She has the car seats in her car.

But I've arranged for my sister to pick us up and drop us off instead (even though it's less convenient for her as she is also doing all the cooking!).

Wtf -- wouldn't you just make a little effort and do the driving (30 minutes each way, so to be fair not totally insigificant) and show that you can be nice, rather than indulging in a spot of emotional blackmail?

The interesting thing about her 'behaving' at your sisters is that implies that she can 'choose' to behave ... and therefore 'choose' not to. Which negates any denial that she doesn't know /didn't mean etc.

That's a really good point, fc.

@motherofdragonite, bon courage today, I'm going to my parents later and a bit wary because my mother is angry with me (because she hurt me) and I'm feeling on edge and this thread popped right up.

Good luck to everybody hoping Christmas day passes with no (more) drama.

Thank you for the good wishes. I hope your holidays haven't gone too badly.

I have to admit, post-Christmas, I'm feeling really torn. My mother behaved herself beautifully while we had Christmas at my sister's house, and then we all went to visit her and the kids and I ended up staying by ourselves for two extra days because the little one got sick.

There were a couple of bad moments (she got very angry when I didn't want to tell her about the kids' dentist appointments -- it's true, I would have told somebody else in conversation, but I just don't want to get into a relationship where she feels she's in charge of all of our lives...). And then she also got really pissed off when driving back and I told her it was dangerous to have a battery pack on the dashboard of the car as it could fly off if there was an accident.

It does make me question myself, though. Was I being rude when I refused to tell her about the dentist? It's true that i would have told somebody else; I just felt I needed to reinforce my boundaries. And maybe I was being ridiculous about the battery pack being dangerous.

If she behaved normally then you could behave normally - but she doesn't so you have to have strong boundaries. End of - no guilt ,- no remorse.

And loose objects in cars are a major danger - a normal person would have said whoops silly me - pop them in the glove box dear - and that would have been the end of it.

OP, your DM is filthy. But you're auto-programmed to love her. And to miss your real mother, the one you never had.

You're not being ridiculous. Mentally, you have to work on leaving the building. She'll be livid when she realises you've gone. That's fine. Keep low contact, so there's no excuse for her to trigger a row, and smile and nod.

Get out and keep your DC out too. Really.

My mum died when I was 17 -always wished my kids had known there Grandmother . We are a long time dead . Please try to find a way through
and tolerate each other for the kids sake.

Yes I think you were rude to her when she had tried. I really don't get the dentist control thing and why didnt you just move the pack thing for her? I know its hard but you are seeing the part you are playing too.

Also please learn to drive if you can.

I am a bit worried about how you see your boundaries. You don't want your DM to use her key to enter your house. That is fine. I have keys to other peoples' house but when I arrive I knock on the door. I see having keys as an emergency thing not an everyday thing.
Then you said that you asked your DM to come and collect you and DCs to go to DSis house. You visit DM and stay over a couple of extra days. Then you get a lift back home and complain about things in her car. I do agree that loose items could cause further injury if there was an accident.
Reading through the things you have said I think you want your DM to do only what you want and to provide lifts when asked but she should not do anything her way. Perhaps when DM was young the area she lived in was one where it was common to leave the front door unlocked and people walked in

It cant be easy for DM to know what is to be done or not done.

Interesting range of opinions!

No, I mean she wanted the battery pack to sit there. She didn't want me to move it.

Blessings, your comment makes a lot of sense to me. Yes, if it was anyone else in the family I wouldn't think twice about answering the question about the dentist. It is more because the boundaries of our relationship are so inappropriate, that once I tell her about anything to do with the kids (minor medical stuff, school etc) she always feels a sense of involvement and I feel as if she's trying to manage it all. For example she once stomped off because I gave the baby some Calpol to help with teething pain and she didn't approve. Obviously any other relative would just accept my decision rather than feel I ought to do what she wanted, which is why I feel I now need to be firmer about boundaries and reinforce that I am the parent and that I am in charge.

It was really nice to see her though and we did have a good Christmas and it was lovely for the kids.

I think I just need to keep it on that level so that it stays lovely. I know she can behave in company! The really unacceptable stuff comes out in private.

@StillMe1 I think you've misread to some extent. It's not that I have a problem with my mother doing things her own way -- she does, and it's totally fine. The problem is that she's very intolerant of me doing things in my way (especially as a parent making decisions for the family) and that is where the problem lies because when she criticises my decisions in front of them, or goes against them with the children, it undermines me as a parent and frankly as a human being.

Do you mean that I shouldn't accept lifts from DM unless I am also prepared to accept that?

Perhaps that would be more reasonable.

But surely most parents would be able to offer a lift without behaving like that?

@MotherofDragonite Being honest I don't know what the answer would be. Mothers and Fathers often have difficulty in seeing their children as adults and parents in their own right. Probably a bit of a heart to heart chat would be a plan where you can both put your views forward and try to reach a compromise.
There are frequent threads on MN where younger parents expect their parents to do things in the manner that is the younger parents' ways while providing "services" like childminding to allow both parents to work or babysitting at any hour of the day and night or helping with other stuff and still the grandparent is criticised.
It seemed to me personally that you want your mother to conform to your wishes but you perhaps do not want to conform to your mother's wishes, I would hope that parent and adult children would talk and compromise.