Is it possible for a Narc to truly engage with therapy & change?

[CornflakeGhetto]

Thinking of my dm here. She walked out when I was a child & my db was only 4. Can you imagine just walking out on a 4yo? She later said she thought it was ok because we got to keep our home & our 'd'f was there to care for us.. Only he didn't, because he was severely abusive himself. I ended up in the care system. My db ran away & survived by his wits.

My dm has always had a chip on her shoulder - it was always about what we could do for her. It's now decades on & I've been nc for 12yrs, however recently I got back in touch to ask some questions. She answered them by reply but there was still the undercurrent of a sting in her writing. At least that's how I read it. I'm considering telling her if she wants the possibility of a connection then she has to do the same therapy that I've had. That way she might come to some sort of consciousness. What do you think? Are there any Narc's who see the light?

Your mother has not fundamentally changed since your childhood.

I would ask why you got back in touch with your mother at all as this was perhaps a retrograde step for you.

I would not suggest therapy, narcissists do not do well in therapy as a rule because they think that nothing is wrong with them in the first place. My advice is to protect yourself going forward by not responding and not mentioning any sort of therapy to her.

Narcs will frequently manipulate therapists. They are good actors and will play the victim. The accepted wisdom is that they don't change, sorry.

It's really intresting area. I believe it is possible for some to make progress but they have to really and truly be self-aware to stop utilising the manipulative behaviours

As both @Attila and @Blue have said, it rarely works and even if you where to persuade them to seek therapy, a self-aware one is much more likely to manipulate as they would see it as a challenge but and one that would supply narcissistic supply.

Or in my mothers case, use it to put the blame on me. She thought that I would go to the counsellor and they would back up everything she said was wrong with me.

Her face was a picture when I told her the counsellor saw nothing wrong with me.

She also used it to justify (excuse) anything that was wrong with her. It’s not her fault, it’s because of xyz, therefore she isn’t to blame.

Please detach yourself

No good will come of this

Narcissism is one of the personality disorders whereby the sufferer does not ever accept that they are narcissists. I believe even internally, they are in complete denial about this. They seem to genuinely believe (almost like if someone is converted into a religion and becomes a fanatic of it) that they are fair and moral and it's everyone around them that's bad. They may put on a front of blaming themselves for sympathy, attention, supply, drama but it's all an act unfortunately. They can't seem to help the way they are and in the end, it's them that lose out the most because of it.

If she’s havd done a huge amount of therapy and understood and sent you a letter with no blame or the old “woe is me”
Then a tiny tiny tiny bit of potential might be there. But she’s done none of the above.

You wanted answers, you’ll never get answers, you’ll get her side of the story she’s invented for herself and her flying monkeys.

Narcs learn to be more effective manipulators through therapy. They will never change or "get better."

Short answer is no. Why on earth do you want to reconnect with someone who treated you and your brother so appallingly?

They can and do change - but only when they are ready to. There’s nothing wrong with suggesting it but it’s important to be prepared for the backlash. Narcissism is based in shame (not feeling good enough). If your suggestion of therapy connects with that shame, it’s likely she’ll do whatever she can do get away from it, including projecting it back onto you. It’s hard to give up hoping when it’s your mum though, I know

Just try not to think about her. She obviously doesn't care about you and with narcissists there is always a next time
So she is only going to hurt you again

These sweeping statements about how they 'never change' are unhelpful and untrue. I believe everyone has the capacity to change, or at least increase flexibility in their thoughts and beliefs.

The key though is recognising that THEY have these difficulties which are impacting on their relationships and quality of life and a desire to take responsibility and do something about it.

Many people (not just 'narcs') never get to this point because their defences are just too ingrained. But it's certainly not to say they can't ever.

You can maybe make your mum go to therapy but you can't make her engage as you have. Also the herald you had might not even be suitable for her.

They key word we use is 'insight', people with personality difficulties tend to lack insight into their motivations/thoughts/beliefs/emotions etc. Sometimes you can help them gain insight and sometimes you can't.

It may be worth talking to her about it but I wouldn't be too optimistic.

Narcs learn to be more effective manipulators through therapy. They will never change or "get better."

THIS

Based on what evidence?

My experience of divorcing a narcissist (a well disguised one!) is that when you confront them they turn the whole situation on its head and accuse you of doing what they are doing. Ex pulled the 'crazy' and 'hormonal' cards as well as the 'alcoholic' card which his family also used. It was crazy-making as well infuriating. When I lost my temper because he was being so unreasonable he would remain completely calm. I remember on one occasion when he had deliberately inflamed me shouted at him to get out of the house and he calmly went to make himself a coffee right in front of me. They know what they are doing. I tend to believe that his father was probably the same and he had learned this behaviour.

Narcissists (or at least the ones I have come across) tend not to do self-development or self-reflection. Because I''m by nature diligent, ex liked nothing more than landing something difficult on my desk and then letting me get on and worry about it.

You tend to find that if a person doesn't respect one boundary, then they disrespect others. Ex would touch me or rub against me when I didn't want him to. He got angry when I wanted to move into the spare room and made my life difficult. He was also financially disorganized and irresponsible.

Unfortunately, because in my opinion we still live in a patriarchal society, women's boundaries are crossed all the time. It's not that long ago that rape within marriage was not considered a crime for instance.

Narcissists will repeatedly disrespect your boundaries. Unfortunately I've got quite a few in my family, which is probably why I married one, and it's so difficult accepting that they won't change. In fact, I think they tend to get worst with age. Gut instinct is very important - when a narcissist is up to his or her tricks their demeanour usually changes somewhat. You can tell they are up to something.

ajp.psychiatryonline.org/doi/abs/10.1176/appi.ajp.2013.12040518

Schema therapy is a good one for personality disorders including NPD, she'd have to pay privately though and it's expensive.

Reading through your post again though there's is nothing in it that suggests your mum would even consider entering into such a huge commitment as therapy. I think you're on a hiding to nothing sorry.

@butterballs9 Good God, are you my exh's first wife? The one I knew was a carbon copy of this, classic covert narcissist whom the rest of the world would never have suspected. He his his tracks extremely well and it was only in the last 18 months of my marriage that I realised exactly what he was.

When I confronted him and said I believed he had no empathy and exhibited psychopathic tendencies, he just smirked and said I was the only person who had ever worked him out. This is the same guy who latterly said he like women who had been bullied as they had "interesting personalities".

@blueangel1 - I've only been married once! That was more than enough. Interesting that your ex already had one marriage under his belt. My ex is a very well disguised narc and I think his father was too. Brothers are as well. I've got a few in my family. Birds of a feather and all that! I would say that one of the most telling signs of a narc (and this is probably true of other personality disorders) is that they don't value people for themselves. They value people for what they can do for them. I've got an in-law narc who uses and abuses people shockingly - there is just no empathy there. These people can be very engaging and charming but they are dangerous. I think one of the ways they can hide is by going into 'caring' roles or roles that look as though butter wouldn't melt in their mouths. Now I think back on my marriage I can hardly remember a time when ex showed real and genuine emotion. He only ever really made an effort with me before we were married.

Afterwards he would put his needs before mine and he expected me to support his business even when it was in trouble and it was clear he needed to change his business model and manage his finances better. As my father has strong narcissistic tendencies he would identify with ex and would financially help ex. Divorcing him was a total nightmare.

Very, very few people would suspect he was anything but a perfect husband and father. He puts on a good show. To be fair I think he did genuinely fall in love with me.

One of the greatest gifts you can give your children is how to be a good judge of character. Although the divorce was hell it certainly shows you what a person is really like. The way ex behaved confirmed that I was doing the right thing! I was shocked - I honestly thought he had more integrity than that. He turned into the classic bitter and twisted ex who tried to leave his spouse with nothing.

My ex's mask would slip occasionally. He smirked on a few occasions when it was completely inappropriate. What was shocking was the number of people of thought I might regret getting divorced as if I hadn't really thought about it.

No.

I don't know if a narc can change but I am utterly sure that if they can (even to a slight extent) the effort to change must be of their own volition.

My DM is a narc of the highest order, and the daughter of a narc who was off the narc scale. I have, unsurprisingly, inherited narc tendencies though I like to think they are pretty mild compared to my DM or her mother. Still, I have cut the genetic rope and not had kids myself.

Recently my DM said she had read some psychology book about how people are affected by their upbringing, and she has been dwelling a lot on what her mother was like. In the last few months she has started a policy of very pointedly asking me what is happening in my life after she has spoken about hers for ages first, in the usual way. I am wondering if any kind of realisation may be dawning on her. Unfortunately it is too late and I am not at all prepared to risk any actual closeness.

Good luck OP and I hope things go the way you want them to.

@butterballs9 my exh was already drinking very heavily before he left, and I found out later that he was skiving off work and hanging around in bars all day looking for (much younger) women to pick up. When I rumbled what was going on and that he was having an affair, he turned into another person.

The OW is another narc/histrionic type and so I think they are made for each other. I told them both that they would spend their lives never being able to trust each other because of their track records (he is now her 3rd husband and she had exit affairs with the other two). Serves them right if they drive each other insane.

My life is much, much improved without him!

I once had the interesting experience of knowing a male narc. Whether or not he realised that was what he was - due to a massive superiority complex that made him feel like he was the King of Everything - is another matter, but I genuinely feel that knowing him over the course of 6 years or so was the closest I have got to knowing an actual psychopath. When I say "knowing" him, I mean that I didn't know him at all, but also knew exactly what he wanted to let me know about him. Which was terrifying. Amongst other things he told me, quite openly, that when he had had counselling/psychotherapy in the past, he imagined himself in a film shut in a padded cell and telling the counsellor precisely what they wanted to hear in order to get signed off.

Actually, thinking of it, his measured way of talking was very much like Hannibal Lecter.

Women narcs...hmm...you may have some hope of surface change, but deep down because they seem themselves as so far above you, I think the cruelty intent is ALWAYS there.

I asked my mother to come to a therapy session with me once. She said she had no time for 'navel gazing'. I had been forced into therapy due to an anxiety disorder and panic attacks which debilitated me to the extent I couldn't work (or drive after having one while driving with my kids in the car).

When I disclosed my childhood sexual abuse to her (therapist thought it might be a good idea to talk to her about it), she said 'oh no, not one of mine (as in one of her children suffering that kind of abuse), it was a long time ago, can you let it go now'. She then proceeded to share her concerns that my niece was being 'interfered with'. A lie to take the focus away from my abuse which was by an older sibling.

I never knew narcissists existed outside of Greek folklore until I researched it myself and she is textbook. Even blaming me for her strangling me almost to death as a young teen as I'd mentioned my real father who'd left her years before.

I've tried and tried to get her to see how her abuse affected me but she will never accept it. When I told her that she should get help for her obvious MH issues she said I was being abusive to her! This is a woman who tormented me with accusations that I would try to kill everyone as they slept when I was sleepwalking so she had to tie string around the bannisters to stop me going to the kitchen to get a knife. I'm not sure that I ever did sleepwalk (no one else noticed it) but I believed I did at the time because she said so. I used to force myself to stay awake as I was terrified of going to sleep. I was 12. That reared its head big time when I had DC of my own and my DH worked nights! She still insisted that her tying up the the bannisters, and telling me how evil I was, was doing the 'best she could' and she had no regrets!

Funnily enough she used to constantly threaten to take me to a psychiatrist and tell me I needed a 'shrink' but asked me why I was wasting my money when I finally did see one!

I honestly don't think people like this (especially mothers) could cope with realising who they are and what they've done so they HAVE to stay in denial for their own self preservation. You're probably on a hiding to nothing OP unfortunately .

@Sunflower just sitting with you. Horrible.

@ blueangel and sunflower - yes, life is hugely improved without a narcissist and yes, the cruelty is one of the hallmarks of narcissism. I think that in the deluded mind of a narcissist being cruel and getting an emotional reaction is seen as being powerful and having control.

In reality it demonstrates their weakness, lack of authentic connection, lack of empathy and, frankly, their stupidity. Narcissists and others with antisocial personality disorders mistake (or pretend to mistake) genuine emotion such as tears or outrage at being grossly disrespected as some kind of amusing diversion, as though they cannot possibly imagine they could have anything to do with this reaction.

I remember one very silly little man who managed to wriggle his way into my affections by virtue of his looks (entirely skin deep) being amazed by the reaction he got when he treated me badly. He and his equally neanderthal friends genuinely thought that I enjoyed crying.

Err...that is how a normal human being responds when you have managed through huge effort and huge deception to worm your way into their affections despite resistance. The moment the narcissist feels that the bait has been taken, they turn the tables and pretend that they are not that interested and that it is their victim who has a problem.

Pathetic, utterly pathetic.