STILL 'devastating' my mother

[RapunzelsRealMom]

Hi,

I am having a terribly difficult time with my relationship with my DM. I received some fantastic advice on a thread a number of months ago. I wonder if anyone remembers it?

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3281536-by-devastating-my-dm?pg=1

There a similar thread right now where a poster is having difficulties with her ILs about them not being asked to babysit as she returns to work and they have really kicked off.

Well, DH and I decided in early summer that DM was really not up to looking after our 5yr old twins. This was after a long period of her not looking after them as she had been unwell. We wanted to retain the status quo whereas she wanted things back as they were. Due to some safety concerns, we decided to stick to our guns, but reassure her how much we love and value her, let her know that her relationship with the little ones (and their older siblings) won't change, etc.

Things escalated horrifically, I kid you not. The details are in my other thread if you're bored enough to go through it.

Some really astute posters recognised, with examples of her behaviour, that she was actually very controlling and manipulative. That is absolutely true but I thought that needed to be dealt with as a separate issue. That wasn't possible.

In short, her behaviour on being told what she didn't want to hear was just a massively exaggerated version of what she has always done when I have behaved in a way that she didn't want. However, generally I have given in, but this time I couldn't. So the tantrum continued. And it is still, almost six months later, continuing.

My mother and I have barely spoken in 6 months. Throughout this, we've had periods of a few weeks with no contact, but, in general, I have continued to invite her to visit every week or we go out shopping together, etc. She will not behave rationally or attempt any semblance of normality. The atmosphere is awful. She has agreed, during occasional calm discussions that I have tried very hard to allow us to have a better relationship, but she can't (won't) accept the fact that she can't look after our DTs anymore and will continue to 'feel hurt' (her description) or 'have a fucking enormous exhausting tantrum' (that's my description but only in my head 😂).

Occasionally, I feel we make headway; we discuss and agree ways to move on. Then, more often than not, we'll refer back to these conversations and she'll have an entirely different memory of them than I have!

Reading this, you may assume that she is suffering from dementia but I genuinely don't think that is the case, although I'm certainly not a doctor. I think that either she hears what she wants to hear and interprets it in her own way OR she actively twists my words to ensure she remains the victim and I remain forever in the wrong. That is how our relationship has always been; I am always in the wrong.

This has affected me quite badly - I'm a people-pleaser with low self-esteem despite having an amazing husband and family. Every time we 'discuss' this, it's all about her - how upset she is, how disappointed she is, how she can't sleep, how unwell it makes her feel. Her behaviour is classic co-dependant.

There is SO MUCH more to it than this but I don't think many will still be reading this, so I won't dwell. However, he upshot is, I've told her that unless things change significantly in her behaviour, I need to stop contact for a significant time. She assured me that she didn't want that and would 'sort it', so I agreed that, if she did that, we would work it out.

Next thing I know, she's texting my adult DD telling her 'your mum has decided to stay away from me'. DD texts back 'no, that's not what mum said' but she insists it is. Victim again?

So (and this may be the real crux of my problem), I'm constantly questioning my behaviour with my kids. I'm desperate not to turn out like her but I'm terrified that I already am! Today, this has come to a head and I got the weirdest feeling, like a realisation that in the long term, they'd probably be better off without me. I'm not suicidal an ddeep down I KNOW that they won't be better off, but I can't shake the feeling. I'm terrified that they end up adults like me, in their 40s, totally depressed at what their mother has done to them.

I know his last paragraph seems like a massive overreaction. I'm sorry to sound dramatic, but I can't share this with DH, although I share everything else with him. He has enough to worry about without his wife losing the plot.

Ignore her. She's behaving like she always has done. You are putting your young vulnerable children ahead of your mother's ego. You're doing fine. But please just ignore her.

I feel utterly drained just reading your post about her weird and wonderful behaviour. I’ve dealt with troubling parents and in the end I just all ties. In the mid-long term it was the best decision I ever made. My life is significantly better, which is a pretty damning indictment in itself.

I suppose you can work at trying to improve relations, if you really value her in your life. During the periods where there’s no contact do you find life generally better without her in the picture?

I agree. Ignore and carry on
Your children are the priority

Stop discussing it with her. Say 'I'm not talking about this anymore', if she presses it leave/put the phone down/stop messaging. Get adult Dd to do the same.

I had to do this with my mother over a few things. The first time it ended up being about 6 months of no contact, but each time after she seemed to get it quicker and now she knows she can't push my buttons any more.

Agree with the others, just stop discussing it with her, whatever you say she’s going to twist so that it portrays you in a bad light so discussing it with her is basically pointless. If you can’t stop contact fully, I’d manage her expectations down a little so that you’re only seeing her once a month and if she starts being batshit, you leave. My usual phrase when my “D”M starts is “get your coats kids, we’re going home” then calmly say goodbye and leave. You need to get your adult DC to not be drawn on it either.

Why do you think you’ve affected your DC in the same way?

Drop the ball and stop having these conversations with her. Every time you do, you give her the attention she wants. Refuse to discuss.

I also would suggest you stop contact for a long time.

As for being like her. Do you really think your husband would stand by and let you act like your mum and not mention it?

I discuss it often with my dh (that fear) and he knows to look out for it, and so far he just reassures me that I am not.

Also, even if you do, you have the self confidence to apologise to your children when you make a mistake and rectify your behaviour. Something she will never do

I disagree with ignoring

What you need is to put it in writing via text

Hi mum just to confirm that X is happening for Y reasons which you agreed with - see you Sunday x

Then there is no confusion

I have to do this with one of my family memebers and things are much better

Thanks for your responses.

As a PP said, my DH would never 'allow' me to be like this with my DCs and he's told me that many times.
When I listen to him, I know I'm not but sometimes I recognise things she has done in myself. DH reminds me that I'm self aware enough to stop this as it happens. She is not.

I can be sharp tongued like she is and always apologise if I am.

I guess I'm just in a state of panic about how terribly this has affected me and I couldn't live with doing this to them.

She seems so bewildered at times that I accuse her of these 'terrible things' (for what it's worth, I don't go into a litany of her crimes but I give examples of her behaviour that I need to stop).

When he was alive, I was NC with my DF (they were divorced) and she constantly piled pressure on me to feel horribly guilty, despite his emotional abuse. So I know that if I do that to her, she'd kick off massively and I'd have to live with the guilt.

Interesting isn't it that I read your DM's reaction as 'now I'm not getting anywhere with my daughter, who else can I bring into it to get my own way'. She's seeking to divide and rule, I'd say, and good for your DD for how she responded.

It's a pretty low trick on your mother's behalf. And before you worry about whether you'll turn out like her, ask yourself if you would behave the way she does........ I rather think you would not!!

Rapunzels

Like many children now adults on the receiving end of such toxic parenting, you have people pleasing behaviours along with low self esteem and FOG (fear, obligation and guilt) in spades.

It is NOT your fault your mother is like this, you did not make her that way. Instead of getting the necessary help she made you her personal scapegoat/fall guy for all her inherent ills. Like practically all toxic people as well she has never apologised nor has accepted any responsibility for her actions. Such too will never be forthcoming.
There will be no improvement of relations because she simply wants her own way all the time; there is no appeasing such people either.

You are expressing a fear that you will turn out just like your toxic mother; I tell you now that such fears are completely unfounded. You have two qualities that your mother lacks; empathy and insight. You are also your own person here, not an extension of your mother and you have also never treated your children in the ways your mother treated you. She is not worthy of you really and has failed, and continues to fail you, abjectly.

Any communication with her now further invites her to respond; you need to adopt and maintain radio silence. Your DD also needs to block her from contacting her too. It goes without saying that such a text from your mother should be ignored.

If you have not already done so I would also post on and read the "well we took you to Stately Homes" thread on these pages and read the resources mentioned at the start of that thread, particularly "Toxic Parents" by Susan Forward.

Reading this thread rings many bells for me as I have a similar relationship with my mother. I have been nc with her for around a year, and it has had a big effect on me - the disappearance of that simmering cauldron of negativity has been wonderful. I do feel sad for my kids though but I have always maintained that out relationship shouldn't mean that she can't contact them whenever she likes. She has chosen not to so it's not coming from me .

We are abroad at the moment so it has been much easier just to ignore her. I'm not sure what will happen when we return home next year . Like your mum, it's all about her - how hard she is finding it, how upset she is. So inward looking.

I too fear turning out like her, but DH knows to slap me with a wet fish if I start showing the signs. Like a pp said you have insight, which is key. You are doing a great job .

Just read your last thread.
Your DM is abusive and controlling.

This is exhausting you and she is draining your finite emotional energy and consuming your head space with negative shit. This will make you depressed. She is an emotional vampire - sucking your finite emotional energy that you should be prioritising and re-directing to your DH and DCs. They are getting less positive energy / relationship from you as you are preoccupied and distracted with their toxic GP. She and your relatiosnhip with her is not important now.

You need to drop the rope - stop engaging.
On the last thread you liked when a PP said "You don't have to turn up to every argument you are invited to" - remember that.

She will never understand your POV because she doesn't want to.

You are giving her oxygen to fuel her fire every time you engage.
You need to take yourself out of punching distance.
You need to go NC/LC - grey rock.

You need long term counselling to build your self esteem.

You are expressing a fear that you will turn out just like your toxic mother; I tell you now that such fears are completely unfounded. You have two qualities that your mother lacks; empathy and insight.

This ^^ My DF is also emotionally manipulative and had a lot of MH when I was growing up. I was terrified that I'd turn out like him and while we do share some traits, there's no way I'd make his mistakes.

Have faith in yourself, OP, you can see what her negative behaviour results in and you're not going to do the same - plus you have your DH to back you up.

Oh thank you so much. I am in tears reading your responses.

I know it's true but so difficult to really believe it, you know?

I have read Toxic Parents. It was a great help but also made me feel like I have it easy - I haven't been sexually or physically abused (I get that it's still bad but I know I play it down).

I will read the stately homes thread - I keep meaning to. Thank you

Emotional abuse can be just as bad as physical in some ways. If someone hits you it's very clear they are abusing you but if someone says something deliberately hurtful then denies they did it, says you've made it up, exaggerated what was said then you are not only hurt but confused and you find other people don't believe how bad things are.

I am sorry you are going through this. Google 'mothers with Borderline personality disorder.'

I am sorry I haven't read your other post but have looked over this one, it rang bells that this might fit.

You really need to stop having "discussions" with her.

Do you understand that she doesn't have to like what you decide to do. She does need to be on side. She needs to fit in or fuck off. The time for collaboration and attempting to reach consensus has come and gone, she now needs to just get on with it or stop seeing you at all.

"Mum, as you know, we aren't doing that anymore. it's not up for discussion."
"You don't have to like it. You're free to hate the decision, but I ask that you keep that to yourself. Thanks."
"Mum I can tell you aren't feeling happy. I'm going to leave. Hope you feel better soon, bye"

You're stuck in this idea that you're going to somehow talk her round. Let it go. She is free to be miserable for the rest of her life - not your decision, or your responsibility.

It's not your job to make her happy. And her happiness isn't even in your control - she's going to be a miserable old bat no matter what you do, so you may as well do what works for you.

You've got to let go.
She's not going to think the way you want her to. And that's ok. It's not a sign that you've done something wrong x

The fact that you are aware of this behaviour, and the likelihood that it is learned, is evidence that you are quite capable of avoiding the automatic repetition. You sound very self-aware. Your daughter came and showed you the text from your mother - if she was afraid of your reaction, she wouldn't have done this. Perhaps some counselling might help you unravel all the damage this unhealthy relationship with your mother and ground you a bit so that you don't question yourself so much.

Hi Op. I have read both of your threads. Your DM has done a real number on you.
If you do catch up with her can you ensure that the whole family is there so you can have the support of your DH and he can act like a buffer if needed.
I’d be tempted to pull contact back to low contact and not get caught up in the same argument.
“We have finished discussing this and DH and I will not change our minds”
If she continues, stand up and walk away or leave.
This is not your fault. You are a good mother

I have been thinking about this all day, and calling your daughter is just as manipulative and abusive (but less frequent) as the shit she is doing to you. She is trying to divide loyalties by being the poor little old lady victim of a cruel, unloving daughter and kind of implying that this, too will be your own daughter’s fate. I hope your daughter is smart enough to read her!!!

OP I have a similar troubled relationship with my mother, a history of father abuse, and she constantly goes in to victim mode and I’m the big bad baddie just because I’m doing what’s best for me and my dc.

Stick to your guns, you know you’re right.

I think you need to step away and see her less, or don’t have any contact for a while. She’s making you feel stressed and upset, and the damage this is doing to you is an entirely valid reason for putting yourself first. She’s an adult and you’re not responsible for her feelings. X

And you also need to tell her not ever try and emotionally manipulate your dd ever again. That’s crossing a major line.

Oh you poor thing. I remember your last thread.

Can I reassure you a little? My mum had a narcissistic, controlling, emotionally abusive mother, who in particular visited her control on my mum as the only daughter.

My mum expressed the same fears as you are about turning out like her mother. She is the absolute opposite. Her insight into what she didn’t want to be has made her a brilliant, empathetic, supportive and respectful parent for the last 40-odd years, through some bloody tough times.

I adore her. My friends adore her and ask to borrow her. My sisters-in-law adore her, and so do my husband and all her grandkids.

You will be amazing too.

When he was alive, I was NC with my DF (they were divorced) and she constantly piled pressure on me to feel horribly guilty, despite his emotional abuse. So I know that if I do that to her, she'd kick off massively and I'd have to live with the guilt.

So she's debilt

WTTF

Shendoesing on purposebyeah?

Sorry about that, my phone went bananas