STILL 'devastating' my mother

[RapunzelsRealMom]

Hi,

I am having a terribly difficult time with my relationship with my DM. I received some fantastic advice on a thread a number of months ago. I wonder if anyone remembers it?

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3281536-by-devastating-my-dm?pg=1

There a similar thread right now where a poster is having difficulties with her ILs about them not being asked to babysit as she returns to work and they have really kicked off.

Well, DH and I decided in early summer that DM was really not up to looking after our 5yr old twins. This was after a long period of her not looking after them as she had been unwell. We wanted to retain the status quo whereas she wanted things back as they were. Due to some safety concerns, we decided to stick to our guns, but reassure her how much we love and value her, let her know that her relationship with the little ones (and their older siblings) won't change, etc.

Things escalated horrifically, I kid you not. The details are in my other thread if you're bored enough to go through it.

Some really astute posters recognised, with examples of her behaviour, that she was actually very controlling and manipulative. That is absolutely true but I thought that needed to be dealt with as a separate issue. That wasn't possible.

In short, her behaviour on being told what she didn't want to hear was just a massively exaggerated version of what she has always done when I have behaved in a way that she didn't want. However, generally I have given in, but this time I couldn't. So the tantrum continued. And it is still, almost six months later, continuing.

My mother and I have barely spoken in 6 months. Throughout this, we've had periods of a few weeks with no contact, but, in general, I have continued to invite her to visit every week or we go out shopping together, etc. She will not behave rationally or attempt any semblance of normality. The atmosphere is awful. She has agreed, during occasional calm discussions that I have tried very hard to allow us to have a better relationship, but she can't (won't) accept the fact that she can't look after our DTs anymore and will continue to 'feel hurt' (her description) or 'have a fucking enormous exhausting tantrum' (that's my description but only in my head 😂).

Occasionally, I feel we make headway; we discuss and agree ways to move on. Then, more often than not, we'll refer back to these conversations and she'll have an entirely different memory of them than I have!

Reading this, you may assume that she is suffering from dementia but I genuinely don't think that is the case, although I'm certainly not a doctor. I think that either she hears what she wants to hear and interprets it in her own way OR she actively twists my words to ensure she remains the victim and I remain forever in the wrong. That is how our relationship has always been; I am always in the wrong.

This has affected me quite badly - I'm a people-pleaser with low self-esteem despite having an amazing husband and family. Every time we 'discuss' this, it's all about her - how upset she is, how disappointed she is, how she can't sleep, how unwell it makes her feel. Her behaviour is classic co-dependant.

There is SO MUCH more to it than this but I don't think many will still be reading this, so I won't dwell. However, he upshot is, I've told her that unless things change significantly in her behaviour, I need to stop contact for a significant time. She assured me that she didn't want that and would 'sort it', so I agreed that, if she did that, we would work it out.

Next thing I know, she's texting my adult DD telling her 'your mum has decided to stay away from me'. DD texts back 'no, that's not what mum said' but she insists it is. Victim again?

So (and this may be the real crux of my problem), I'm constantly questioning my behaviour with my kids. I'm desperate not to turn out like her but I'm terrified that I already am! Today, this has come to a head and I got the weirdest feeling, like a realisation that in the long term, they'd probably be better off without me. I'm not suicidal an ddeep down I KNOW that they won't be better off, but I can't shake the feeling. I'm terrified that they end up adults like me, in their 40s, totally depressed at what their mother has done to them.

I know his last paragraph seems like a massive overreaction. I'm sorry to sound dramatic, but I can't share this with DH, although I share everything else with him. He has enough to worry about without his wife losing the plot.

justilou Yes,adult DD is on to her. She just rolls her eyes at what gran is up to now.

Thank goodness her behaviour doesn't really affect the kids much emotionally- there is a degree of separation of course.

I think the advice to keep away from her for a while is the right thing. Then to say that I won't discuss it again and it's my way or the highway.

I can't see that being accepted though!

I hate how guilty I feel. What is wrong with me?! I know what she's doing, I'm experiencing it, but she's so convincing that she isn't doing it or that she doesn't mean it that I don't know whether I'm coming or going!

She gaslights me so much!!
A month or two ago, I let her come to watch DTs in a sports class. One of my neighbours kids was there in sports gear, the mother standing 6-8ft from us. On seeing the boy (age 12), DM said 'dear god, would you look at the size of XXX' (meaning that he is overweight). The sports hall was noisy so I'm not sure if the mother heard (or heard wrongly and thought I'd said it!!!) but I feel she has avoided me since. I'm so upset but can't speak to her about it incase she didn't actually hear!
Anyway, DM completely denies saying it. Completely denies that the mother was there. Basically I'm a liar. I can't take it

Today, this has come to a head and I got the weirdest feeling, like a realisation that in the long term, they'd probably be better off without me. I'm not suicidal an ddeep down I KNOW that they won't be better off, but I can't shake the feeling.

you've had this guilt tripping all your life haven't you? This moment - could it be that the sum total of this manipulation and guilting came like a wave over you?

It's extremely unlikely that you'll turn into your mum because it's clear that you examine your own behaviour. Fear of turning into her is the first step in not turning into her. We can say that and maybe you can't -feel- it, but it's true.

Never mind anything else, from that anecdote of the boy in the sports class your mother is, actually, quite malicious. It was a not-particularly-pleasant comment in the first place but to deny she said it is a nasty thing to do. The consequence of denying what you've said is to make everyone else out to be liars. I suspect she doesn't want to acknowledge how mean spirited she can actually be, so she dumps the consequences on everyone else.

Imagine a rock to stand on when she tries to manipulate you, and a shield around you that arrows of guilt tripping bounce off and fall harmlessly to the floor.

I think you do need to talk to your husband about her behaviour and how it makes you feel in order to kind of step outside yourself and see it with a new perspective. All this guilt she's piling on you is not yours. She's being malicious again by manipulating you so she is perfect and everyone else is not.

I think that drawing back for a while is a very good idea. I don't know if NC is necessary or if you'd want to, but some distance while you strengthen your own sense of what's appropriate responsibility and what isn't would be a good idea. If you do see her, as others say, when she starts to guilt you then get your coat and leave.

It does very much prove that you were right to look elsewhere for childcare tho!.

Glad DD is onto Gran’s tricks... obviously you don’t play the same games!!!

Thanks everyone for your insights. I really appreciate all the support.

This is eating away at me - I'm so angry at her behaviour but feel sorry for her too.

I would like to have the semblance of a normal relationship with her, which may gradually go back to genuine 'normality' but unless I cave on everything, she is sticking to her guns - that everything I've done is wrong and I've been purposely hurtful to her, made up lies, etc and she is the poor victim.

I would like to have the semblance of a normal relationship with her

I'm so sorry, I think you're going to need to let this go and grieve the thing you wish you had. She's not capable of it is she?

The way your mum behaves towards you is exactly how my nan is with my mum. Tell lies, gaslights, tries to manipulate/guilt trip her, is abusive. So I'm in your DD's shoes and I see right through it - and my mum is NOTHING like her, as you clearly aren't like yours. But please, for the sake of your mental health, go LC or NC. My nan is 92 and my mum is 70 and it's STILL going on because my mum's hung in there, hoping their relationship will get better (despite me and my DF begging her not to bother). It never has, never will and I think she's a shadow of the person she would've been had she'd turned her back on her mum's awful behaviour.

You seem like a compassionate, caring sort. While that's a lovely thing, it's worth being aware that there are people out there who will use your compassion against you. People who don't actually have your best interests at heart, and who are happy to play on your heartstrings to get what they want. Often they'll make out like they are upset/devastated like your mother does (even though they acted unreasonably).

But they always, ALWAYS draw you back in and harm you again. The only way is to never let them under your compassion radar again - use that gift to protect yourself and your family. Show compassion to yourself first and foremost.

I learned this the hard way, but once learned it has made my life 100% better.

I have read both threads now and I think you need to talk to your dh about how you are feeling.

Have you looked into the grey rock method? There is more information on it here;

180rule.com/the-gray-rock-method-of-dealing-with-psychopaths/

My dh’s Parents are both abusive narcissists, FIL is also a sociopath. Dh was very much controlled by both of his dp until he was a grown man and started to say no. We eventually went NC seven years ago.

We have had many discussions about parenting and my dh asked me to intervene if I ever felt that he was repeating his Fathers behaviours. I absolutely agreed and have intervened several times, each of which dh has apologised to our dc and thanked me for intervening. 99% of the time he is a genuinely fantastic Daddy, he has a great relationship with both of our dc.

I am sure your DH would do the same for you, although I would be very surprised if he ever needs to (you sound loving, empathic and a wonderful DM).

Emotional abuse is horrendous OP.
It's so easy to minimise it but actually the effects are massive. It's why you feel so awful now.

I went NC with my mother for 18 Months and we are now LC which is working quite well. She will never be the mother I want her to be but I have finally accepted this and I now have very strong boundaries with her. I needed counselling support to build the skills to do this.

I would advise you to go NC and get some counselling for yourself. You are super important and you need to take care of yourself first. Your mother is draining you and consuming your energy.

The guilt you feel belongs to her and not to you. Shake it off.

I really feel for you OP. My parents really fucked me up with their parenting (they didn't mean to but they still did). I'm still working on unfucking myself.

unless I cave on everything, she is sticking to her guns - that everything I've done is wrong and I've been purposely hurtful to her, made up lies, etc and she is the poor victim

someone very wise said back in the 1800's that a point comes where an adult has to break free of a mother who thinks that she owns their child.

This is kind of the point you're at. Emotionally, it's either accept her view of things and deny your own experience (which will lead to a sort of mental subjugation and frankly, put your daughter at serious risk), or choose your own experience and stand strong (which will lead to possible alienation by your mother)

Both choices are shit, but one is healthier for all 3 of you. It isn't actually good for your mother to succeed in her attempts to manipulate and pressure you.

You can’t have a normal relationship with her , that’s not what she wants. She wants to go on controlling and manipulating you.

She will never stop or change , this is how she is.

Nothing you can say or do will change her.

You need to Stop seeing her for a while. You need to put your own mental health first.

This isn’t fair on your children and your husband either . All your mental and emotional energy is focussed on your mum rather than on yourself and them. That feeling you have - that you are a bad mother and your kids would be better off without you - is a sign that your mother is messing with your head.

Please listen to Atilla, who is very wise on these things . And do read the stately homes threads.

Can I add to the others' here - *she will not change.

she will not change.

she will not change.*

Please get this into your head. And stay away from her!

Get some counselling if you feel guilty.

Imagine if your husband had a mother who kept mentally and emotionally abusing him, year after year and he kept going back for more. Then it was affecting his well-being and his marriage. What would you suggest to him? Hopefully to stay away from the witch!

Protect yourself.

Her wish to control might not change, but if you stand strong she might come round to accepting your boundaries. She'll hate it, but if she can grit her teeth and accept it then you might still have a better relationship.

Give it time, rapunzel. Sometimes it helps.

You -are- doing the right thing, the risks from boiling water and road crossings are just too great.

I’m out the other side of your situation, and living in the sunny calm beyond. Go ‘grey rock’ and low contact (there are rules in these approaches that you need to look up and follow to the letter).

Come and join me, in the land of the weightless shoulders and light spirits. I walk where I’m going in straight sure steps, not spun around dizzy with guilt and confusion and blame. I repeat my short boundary-enforcing statements with a smile, over and over, with no need to improvise or impress or gain approval. I look people in the eye, and speak my truths. No so directly as to be rude, but no pussy-footing allowed either. The only eggshells I need to concern myself with are in a carton in my fridge. Any nonsense that creeps through from the old, foggy world gets treated with a head-tilt or a Hard Stare and then I remove myself. Leave the nonsense where it belongs and shut the gate behind you.

There’s a whole happy world of great people and experiences out here, a million miles from the hand-wringing you’re committed to at the moment. Come and join me?

Nitpick what an inspirational and uplifting post - please share your short boundary enforcing statements.

OP - it is unanimous on this thread the way forward. She is abusive, she will never change, you will not ever have the relationship that you want with her, you don’t have to understand her or the dynamic any more than that.

You are not like her - but you could stil be doing a disservice to your DCs and your DH if you continue to be preoccupied with her and prioritise your finite emotional energy in this negative futile spiral.

Your DC and DH NEED a fully emotionally engaged and positively energetic DM and DW - not an exhausted depleted depressed victim who is less for them.

Be a survivor - show your children where respectful boundaries lie - model for them how to deal with toxic, abusive people - make them proud of you and give yourself back to them emotionally. Talk it out with them otherwise they will learn this is what to expect in relationships - that you tolerate shit - show them how to walk.