Helping DH work through anger with his parents

[Echobelly]

DH is currently not talking to his parents. They have a long history of being dismissive of him, always seeming to judge him as being in the wrong, seeing him as a 'fuck-up', making him apologise for things even when they really should be the ones apologising etc. This latest blew up after his mum, without sufficient context to see the true picture, told him he was responsible for a manager having a go at him and owed the manager an apology (what actually happened was manager had had a day where she shouted at a load of people for no good reason and upset them).

He's had a few of these times he hasn't wanted to speak to them before, but this time is different as he is so angry that he doesn't want them to see our kids - he feels that as they haven't made an effort with him they don't get to see the kids until they consider what they have done wrong. And admittedly their only response to this has been texts from his dad basically telling him all the things he should be grateful for, what's his problem? and why he should sort himself out. No 'What's wrong?', 'Let's talk and sort this out' and so on.

Now before you go nuclear on him, I'm not convinced he will stand by this - I have told him that bringing kid access into it is a horrid move, will totally undermine his case and just make them focus on 'Boo hoo, boo hoo, DS is so horrible he's not letting us see the kids' and playing the victims. He sees my point to some extent but still feels that until they give a shit about him, why should they see the kids?

I don't want a load of posts about this is a shitty thing to do (it is, I know) and DH is a bastard (he's not). I'm not sure how and if I can convince him about the kids thing, I've said about everything I can say.

It's all been made more awkward as MIL left a phone message asking after me and asking to speak to the kids on Friday... DH has not intimated anything to his parents yet about not seeing the kids, but I honestly didn't feel I could go behind his back and have them speak with her, plus she might talk to them and (not necessarily manipulatively) arranged to do something with them. I have not as yet returned her call nor do I feel I can speak to her until DH has decided what he wants to do, as I don't want to say anything about their access to the kids.

BTW, they live locally. We historically see them almost every week. I don't think going NC is an option unless we were to move or something and they are not so appalling as to merit that much exertion. I think suggesting there is less contact (there is one night a week we pretty much always see them) for the future might be a better thing.

The really frustrating bit is that DH is resisting telling them directly 'I am really angry because you have made no effort to contact me to ask what your role is in all of this, rather than admonishing me' and is on some level holding to keeping himself and the kids away until they magically realise this. When the whole problem is because they are utterly fucking unaware!

Any advice (without just slagging off DH, no he is not thinking this through well, but he is a good person) appreciated.

TL;DR - Husband so angry with parents for their emotional mistreatment of him for years that he wants to withhold them seeing kids & believes he shouldn't directly tell them what they've done wrong because they have to realise it themselves if they actually care about their relationship with him

I think your husband has a point, if they have emotionally abused him they can’t expect to have a good relationship with your children . I can see why you want him to be honest with them but where will it get you, they won’t admit to be abusers. In your position I’d just see less of them, maybe once a month.

I'm sorry I agree with your husband. If they have been so emotionally unaware towards your DH then they will probably be just as horrible towards your DC! Do you really want that to happen?

The really frustrating bit is that DH is resisting telling them directly 'I am really angry because you have made no effort to contact me to ask what your role is in all of this, rather than admonishing me' and is on some level holding to keeping himself and the kids away until they magically realise this. When the whole problem is because they are utterly fucking unaware!

How's your relationship with your parents? I'm guessing you come from a healthier background?

The reality is that in the background you describe, it wouldn't matter a merry toss if DH tried saying that. They will still be narcissists. You are expecting these people to have capacity to change. They don't. The best you and DH can do is manage them within tight boundaries. They have violated DH's boundaries in the example you give.

Bottom line is no one has the right to see their grandchildren. It's a privilege. How old are DC? Are they commenting on the reduced contact? Do they get on particularly well with GP? Look forward to seeing them? Or is it just a box ticking exercise for the sake of keeping up appearances? Is is weekly, monthly, phone calls, visits to them, how far away etc? No right or wrong answers just to give context. And to start thinking about how caged in your DH might be feeling in trying to please his unpleaseable parents.

I don’t think you are the right person to help, though you can offer support.

He needs some counselling.

I would also agree with your H here taking the position he now has. They have really let him down abjectly by treating him the ways they have over the years. His parents are really not self aware, they will never apologise nor will ever accept any responsibility for their actions. Its their way or no way as far as they are concerned. His parents were not good parents to him when he was growing up and they have not fundamentally altered since his childhood. They should not be around your children now.

I see too that they have done the usual thing of contacting you as his wife directly (they did that mainly and also because they see you as easier to manipulate) as they could not contact him. These people really do not like you either or even care anything about you; its your children they want contact with mainly so they can also be manipulated.

Your mistake here is to try and apply "normal" rules of familial interactions to his parents. It does not work, the rulebook really does go out of the window when it comes to dysfunctional families. Note too that both parents here have not apologised nor have accepted any responsibility for his actions. His dad's response is typical of such toxic parents; i.e. its word for word anyone else's fault except his. They will NEVER apologise nor accept any responsibility for their actions. Would you have tolerated this from a friend, no you would not have done. His parents are no different.

Not all relations are nice and your children need nice and importantly emotionally healthy role models in their lives. This is a good time to teach them such lessons, they after all are relying on you as their parents to provide and show good guidance and judgment.

They are his parents and your boundaries too re them need further revision as well as raising. I would encourage your H to read "Toxic Parents" written by Susan Forward (you could read her book about inlaws). He also needs to properly now deal with his own fear, obligation and guilt re them. To that end he needs to see a therapist and one importantly that has NO familial bias about keeping families together despite the presence of mistreatment.

Also such people like his parents will in all likelihood likely rail against any boundary either of you care to set them. They have both tried to overstep boundaries and this will continue from them along with stepping up power and control. They could well start to turn up on your doorstep or use other relatives as "flying monkeys" to bring your H (and you) into line.

It looks like you have come from a nice and importantly too, an emotionally healthy, family of origin. Your DH was not so lucky here. You must support your DH here despite any misgivings you have.

From what you have written.

You should support your DH fully and not be trying to talk him out of it.

His life, your life and the lives of your children will be better for it.

Thanks for comments all. I think it may all be about boundaries.

He's planning to draft a letter to them today, so he can get his thoughts out without being gaslighted and interrupted. I have said to him before I don't think his parents will change and he has to accept that.

They haven't done any harm to the kids, though DD (10) is already learning to roll eyes a bit at some of MIL's attitudes and I do worry that as DD enters adolescence, if she doesn't end up with a very skinny figure MIL's body fascism will surface.... At the moment DD is very much, rather too blatantly, MIL's favourite grandchild.

Seeing ILs regularly is actually something we mostly are happy to do - most times with them are perfectly OK, some are lovely, but every now and again they are truly awful.

And yes, I do come from a family where we all get on. My parents are also local, FWIW.

Erm they are damaging the DC already by having a clear favourite!!!

Does DH have siblings?

I think you soudl back your DH up in this - you sound a blinkered to the damage they are doing to your DC as well as him=- why are you bothered about seeing them so much?
it is a lot more than most people see their in-laws (in my experience)
the emotional abuse of your dh, the blatent favoritism and the body fascism are all not happy things to add to your family - why would you stay in contact?

Sorry OP but your DH is right on this and you should be supporting him. He wishes to protect his children from going through the same emotional shit he's had to put up with. Your update has actually made it even more obvious that he's right and I'm amazed you don't see that.

Interesting you thought everyone would be on your side and not your DH's and the reverse is the case.

Talking of boundaries, where are yours? You’ve already said they won’t change!

Why are you accepting of the years and years of the emotional mistreatment of your DH? Why aren’t you angry and upset that he’s always seen as wrong and never good enough?

Why are you accepting that MIL has an obvious favourite child? Why aren’t you protecting your other child from that?

Why are you happy to wait and see if the inevitable body shaming if your children starts?

At least he’s had a lifetime of FOG (fear, obligation and guilt) to work through before he sees them for what they are - you should Google it. You don’t have that FOG and yet still thought your post would be seen as your DH having the problem because you’re the one who’s so accepting of this when he isn’t.

He needs to be supported. As you said they won’t change and your DH has been, and would continue to be, ground down and negatively affected by them his whole life unless he makes a stand. Your kids are now also reacting and being affected by this despite them having more limited contact than your poor DH has had and yet despite you foresee this getting worse would stand by and watch this pan out because your boundaries are shit!

Wake up and support your DH and protect your kids

Yep. Another one on your dh side. It is sad that he, Not only has abusive parents, but that his wife doesn’t believe and support his efforts to protect his children.

Your kids are young, they will start to have opinions of their own, that is when your in law behaviour will worsen. And take it from the teenage daughter of a parent who constantly criticised her weight (both too skinny and too fat) your ‘favourite’ daughter will suffer horribly when she goes from favourite to constantly picked on for her weight.

Start looking at counselling for your dh with someone with experience of toxic parents and who doesn’t believe contact to necessary.

There is also a website called ‘sons or narcissis mothers’ he might find some help with. It might not all be there, but will give him a place to start the process of healing.

And also think about your attitude. Your husband was abused as a child (the same age as your own child) and yet you want him to not only be in contact with his abuses, but also to allow them contact with your own children.

Let them have contact with people who love them for them and won’t deliberately hurt them.

Think on op, your dh knows them much better than you do. Sounds like he wants to protect his dc from them. You need to support this surely? Being the favourite isn't healthy for your dd anyway.

Body facism and favourites. Both of these do serious long-term damage to children.

I think this is a difficult one as my own parents are/were (father no longer aliive) a bit like the OP's parents.

Sometimes bad parents can be affectionate grandparents. And I think it is good for children to know their wider family.

Although it is obviously right to keep abusers away from children, is it right to keep people who do a not-too-bad job of grandparenting away from their grandkids. If the children are to be kept away, they deserve some sort of explanation and what sort of age-appropriate explanation can be given. I think it will make children feel insecure if people who were part of their lives are suddenly shunned and no explanation is provided.

I'd be inclined to say that Dad and Grandma/Grandpa have had a disagreement so Dad wants a bit of time to think at the moment. These things happen with grown ups sometimes. In the meantime they'll be seeing their grandparents on.... insert appropriate date/occasion.

And leave it at that for now. Meanwhile perhaps your husband needs some kind of help outside the family to help him deal with the difficult relationship.

Just support him. He's doing exactly what he needs to do to 'work through his anger'. It'll be a great relief to him to know that you're unequivocally on his side.
It goes where it goes.

I'd spoken to some friends about this who were immediately all 'You can't keep GC from GPs unless the GPs have done them direct harm, that's shitty', and from a lot of interactions on MN I'd sort of assumed people would rush to judge DH for it, so that's why I was a bit defensive about it! But I'm glad you're not being.

I don't think he is at all desiring to go NC in the longer term, what he'd really like from them is to apologise for once and to treat him like a bloody adult, but I have said to him before that I don't think that will happen, sadly.

Yes, he has siblings. DH was originally the 'Golden Boy' on whom all their hopes were laid, while his younger brother was in his shadow. Brother, also living near us, seen as more dependable and stable one, gets much less crap, I would say he generally backs up DH. Sister is probably favoured as 'baby' of family. Most of the conflict definitely falls on DH.

Support your DH.
Your PIL’s are toxic. Do they bring ANYTHING positive into your DH’s life?
Your DH is right, they can’t treat him like crap and demand to see their GC behind his back ( through you) regardless to what ALL your friends are saying.
Good for your DH to stand up to his parents, some good counselling would do him a world of good.
People like your PIL’s will never admit they are in the wrong and no amount of letters/ explaining will make them see DH’s point of view.
Good luck to your DH, he needs enormous amount of strength todeal with the situation.

Echobelly

re your comment:-

He's planning to draft a letter to them today, so he can get his thoughts out without being gaslighted and interrupted. I have said to him before I don't think his parents will change and he has to accept that.

And so will you ultimately. I think you still hold out some hope that a conversation with them between yourselves will put this right.

No to sending them a letter, no matter how nicely and carefully worded he words it. It will simply provide them with more ready made ammo for them to aim at your H. To such people like his parents, the best form of defense is attack. And they will certainly attack on receiving this.

"They haven't done any harm to the kids, though DD (10) is already learning to roll eyes a bit at some of MIL's attitudes and I do worry that as DD enters adolescence, if she doesn't end up with a very skinny figure MIL's body fascism will surface.... At the moment DD is very much, rather too blatantly, MIL's favourite grandchild".

Do you really think they have not done any harm to your children; they are being harmed right in front of your very eyes!!!. It does not have to be verbal either; a pinch or sharp look of disdain will do. And there is overt favouritism; why are you two as these children's parents allowing these people to have a relationship with your kids?. This is something you are going to have to ask yourselves. One generation i.e. your H has already been emotionally harmed by them and now not too disimilar harm is being played out to your children. Toxic crap like this can and does go down the generations. Children do notice and your 10 year old is very perceptive. Do not let your own ideal childhood with your family continue to blind you so. They like you because you want to be reasonable and are easily manipulated by them. You co-operate, the abusers never co-operate.

"Seeing ILs regularly is actually something we mostly are happy to do - most times with them are perfectly OK, some are lovely, but every now and again they are truly awful".

So why are you continuing to subject yourselves and your kids to them at all?. Would you have tolerated this from friends of yours?. Think your H is well trained by his parents to serve them as well as being mired in his own fear, obligation and guilt of them. He still hopes on some level that they will say sorry and change; it will not happen".

Many abusive people can be "nice" sometimes but this is really all a part of their nice/nasty cycle of abuse and that cycle is a continuous one. Low contact will not ultimately work with these people.

Echobelly

re your comment:-
"I'd spoken to some friends about this who were immediately all 'You can't keep GC from GPs unless the GPs have done them direct harm, that's shitty', and from a lot of interactions on MN I'd sort of assumed people would rush to judge DH for it, so that's why I was a bit defensive about it! But I'm glad you're not being".

Friends as you have seen are not always the best people to ask, they can be over invested. Some people who come from emotionally healthy families cannot at all comprehend the fact that parents and relatives can and do act abusively towards their children who are now adults. It does not compute with them hence those types of comments you got from your friends. Many people on MN are thankfully more enlightened and I would also direct your attention to the "well we took you to Stately Homes" thread on these pages. BTW there has also been direct harm done to your children by means of overt favouritism and body shaming.

"I don't think he is at all desiring to go NC in the longer term, what he'd really like from them is to apologise for once and to treat him like a bloody adult, but I have said to him before that I don't think that will happen, sadly".

Correct. You need to fully believe that and be firmly on his side too. Going NC in the long run is not a decision that is taken or made lightly; he will need support to help him out of his own fear, obligation and guilt. Both of you need to present a united front.

"Yes, he has siblings. DH was originally the 'Golden Boy' on whom all their hopes were laid, while his younger brother was in his shadow. Brother, also living near us, seen as more dependable and stable one, gets much less crap, I would say he generally backs up DH. Sister is probably favoured as 'baby' of family. Most of the conflict definitely falls on DH".

In narcissistic family structures the roles of golden child and scapegoat are interchangeable with your DH now (and in turn his whole family unit including you) being scapegoated. I would think his brother has well and truly distanced himself both mentally and physically from his parents and ultimately your DH and you are going to have to do the same. His sister is unaware that her current role as golden child is a role also not without price.

Went thru the same thing with my DH's parents. Wasted years of misery and emotional black mail. They not only did that to him, they did it to me as well. I ended up going to counselling for it and he cut them off completely for the last 5 years. Best thing we did. As for DC not knowing their grandparents - take it as a necessity. You don't want them passing their S-H on to the DCs. I'd recommend you reading the book "Children of Emotionally Immature Parents". It was an eye opener and some comfort that we weren't the only ones going through it. Good luck.

DH wrote a letter to his parents a couple of years ago explaining how he felt thru the years. They were convinced he was having a mental breakdown rather than wanting an honest conversation with him. My FIL actually thinly accused me of locking him in a cult that cuts family ties!! My MIL called once and not a single acknowledgement of the issues or DH's letter but wanted to talk about the bleeding weather. I ended the conversation soon as. I find it hard that my children don't have a healthy relationship with their grandparents but I'm protecting them as well.

You need to protect your DCs.
When your DH has written his letter he should burn it.