My niece is being abused and I can't help her

[AuntieNameChange]

It's fucking horrible and I don't know how best to tackle this going forward. Name-changed, obviously, but been around (mostly lurking) since 2012.

Brief background to remove the need for a ton of questions about situation: DBro and I have an excellent relationship and live next door to each other. We each have one DD aged five. Share school runs, babysit at a moment's notice, act as second parent for each other as needed - the works. DN is with DBro very slightly more than 50% of the time, and he's classed as resident parent for administrative purposes basically because he was the one who went part-time to take on the domestic-shitwork-childcare-admin role (and did it properly too). If I say "we" instead of "I" in this post I'm meaning me and DBro together, because we're trying to keep a united front for DN's sake and he's given me permission to post and ask for advice.

DN was a toddler when her parents split. Shortly afterwards her mother announced she is now a man. This is categorically not a case of lifelong gender dysphoria; she admitted herself her decision to identify as a man was prompted by the realisation that her relationship with my brother would not be resumed. With my amateur psychologist hat on and knowing a lot of specifics of her history, her whole life's being driven classic borderline personality symptoms as a result of early trauma and early sexual trauma which she's not acknowledging.

She made some attempts to engage with therapy before the sudden decision to declare herself a man, but retreated instead of engaging with services because she for whatever reasons wasn't able to accept and start dealing with the underlying traumas that are driving her. And now she's identified into the trans label, mental health services are duty-bound to affirm her gender identity and not investigate it at all in case they're accused of conversion therapy, which is effectively labelling all of the underlying trauma as out-of-bounds in a therapy context.

Since the split DN's mother has repeatedly severely verbally chastised her for calling her "mum", and has gone through several variations of a male-parent name which DN has been compelled to comply with. The latest male-parent name she's decided to adopt is "Daddy [malename]" despite repeatedly assuring my brother that she would always respect his wish to retain "Daddy" for himself.

Flipside of that: I recently overheard DN arguing with DD - DN was defending her own right to call me "mum". A couple of months ago we all went to see Dsis - DN took DSis aside at one point to confide a secret, which turned out to be "everyone else has got a mother but I don't." These little moments keep happening and they are breaking my heart.

She's just started school. All the other kids have got a mother - even ones with separated parents. All the other kids have got some vague notion of an adult woman from whom they originated. If any one of her classmates actually had two gay men as parents, they'd still know they were made inside a woman and have that knowledge of their origins. I'm guessing DN wants to fit in with the others by finding commonality of experience - and DBro and I (and extended family) are trying to cope with this by reassuring DN that she does of course have a mother, just like all the other children, her mother just likes to go by a different name and dress a bit differently to most other mothers etc.

I'm pretty sure that this is the best way to tackle this particular issue - acknowledging mother wishes to present as male while also acknowledging the sex-based reality that mother is indeed where DN originated.

But the trouble - as I became acutely aware when DN blew up at me and DD on the way home from school today - is that, whenever DN asks her mother (in a roundabout, five year old sort of way) "are you really my mum?" the response she's getting is a very definite negative. The precise words DN used today didn't sound like her, didn't sound natural to a five year old, did sound exactly like her mother - she's parroting what she's been told. Based on the parroting it's clear the message she's being given is "FFS I am so sick and tired of people trying to tell me I'm not a boy! Of course I am a boy! Stop calling me a girl!" rather than an acknowledgement that she is indeed DN's mother.

DN is being gaslight by her own mother.

How the hell do we help her?

It's obvious, seeing DN, that she's suffering ongoing psychological problems as a result of this situation - unsurprisingly, because gaslighting fucks people up at the best of times! - and we're starting to feel that DN could probably do with some professional input to help her deal with the situation she's in. But if the professionals are all bound by this instruction from on high to affirm gender identities at all costs, DN is just going to end up facing yet more gaslighting from the therapists who are supposed to help her. Worse, DBro's going to be cast as the abuser, despite being mentally stable and a good parent who does his best to put his child's needs first.

DN's being abused, we can see it's fucking her up, we need to get her out - but that's a fucking serious path to go down and there's no guarantee it would work; it could well end up fucking DN up in other ways.

What the hell do we do? How do I navigate this with integrity and honesty and a desire to prioritise DN's welfare over her mother's gender identity wishes, without inadvertently fucking DN up in a different direction?

Please, no critical remarks about my interpretation of DN's mother's gender identity. It doesn't actually matter to me what's going on in her head - what matters to me and what I need help with is helping my niece to grow into a resilient and mentally-healthy adult despite the adverse situation she finds herself in.

I won't lie to DN and say she wasn't made in "Daddy [malename]'s" stomach. I won't lie to her and say that the type of body that can grow babies can somehow turn into the type of body that provides half the ingredients and none of the labour in the baby-making process. I refuse to lie to her about biology.

And I'm acutely aware that I'm the only acknowledged female role model she's got. She's watching me and she's learning how women navigate the world and what women should expect from the world. I need to be mindful of the messages I'm giving her - I will not teach her that women accept and submit to gaslighting; I will not teach her that this is normal; I will not teach her that she should accept abuse.

I really need some help navigating all this.

I don’t think you’re a troll for a moment but I also don’t think your DN is being abused in the usual sense of the word.

What a terribly difficult situation for everyone involved. Have you looked at Transgendertrend to see (or ask) if they have any advice in this scenario? They are apparently more fact / biology based & acknowledge sex as distinct from gender.

I think calling this abuse is hyperbolic, unless there are other things going on that you haven't mentioned. I say that as someone who suffered emotional abuse as a child.

It does not sound like her 'mother' is being cruel to her, they are just teaching her something very different from your own, and perhaps the majority's, beliefs.

It's a similar situation to her parent joining a religion. Teach her "some people believe X, some people believe Y. You can make up your own mind. Its okay to call "daddy A" the way they ask because it makes them happier"

Contact social services and ask their advice

continuallycharging
Abuse comes in many forms, and this attitude and behaviour towards a 5 year old seems very likely to emotionally damage this five year old.

It certainly falls very short of being a supportive and loving response from a parent. Therefore, I think it's very appropriate to refer to it as abusive behaviour, or 'abuse'.

Sounds a difficult situation though. I suspect you're going to have to help dn navigate a whole host of other issues in the coming years relating to her birth giver (sorry, not sure what label to use) as there seems to be little empathy or understanding towards dn coming from that direction.

I'll watch this thread with interest.

To add: If daddy A is presenting convincingly as male, then there's no use just teaching dn that they are her mother, that's even more confusing as her friends will see them as a man. Teach her that she has two parents who love her, that daddy A gave birth to her like a mother but then wanted to change to be like a daddy. Try to find a simple expansion that makes sense to her but isn't unacceptable to daddy A.

Do not try to separate her from daddy A, losing a loving parent would do far more harm to her than receiving confusing messages about gender.

Of course abuse comes in many forms but I still don’t think this is abuse, I’m sorry.

"Calling this abuse is hyperbolic" yes, I see it looks that way from what I describe here, but that's because I'm specifically looking for advice on how to navigate the complications of the gender identity / sex issue. I could detail plenty of other things which together from a pattern of emotional abuse, but the rest we can already navigate well enough (thanks largely to everything I've learned lurking in here and on MN as a whole over the years).

Also gaslighting is classed as abuse now, isn't it?

It's just this specific issue of DN asking her mother "are you my mother?" and being told "of course not; I'm a man" that's being really hard to find a clear path through, because DN's mother is determined to prioritise her own gender identity thing over her daughter's emotional needs.

Yes I can can see how the whole 'mother' thing is causing an issue.

She is her 'mother' in the biological sense even if she isn't 'mum' in the descriptive sense.

Is there another description her mother would be happy for her to use to understand that she biologically held her during pregnancy despite what gender she identifies with?

No 5yo can probably grasp the concept of not having a biological another and father regardless of the family set up (adoptive, fostered, IVF, doner etc) like you say even children in same sex couple relationships know where they biologically came from and it's acknowledged.

The recognising the biology isn't ignoring someone's preferred title or ignoring their parenting role.

I think maybe you'll have to tell DN that daddy and daddy A made her, she came out of daddy A tummy like children come out of their mummies tummy but she is daddy A. Make sure everyone refers to her as daddy A to support DN recognition of her in that role.

As long as everyone's consistent and positive about everyone's position then DN will grow up knowing that's the position and children are usually pretty accepting of things if the adults in their lives don't make it out to be an issue.

DN's mother is not presenting convincingly, does not pass. Has deeper voice and a bit more hair due to hormones but is still obviously female, has breasts and vulva which DN is aware of etc.

How do I teach her that her mother "wanted to be more like a daddy than a mummy" aka mummies and daddies are fundamentally different in terms of parenting, while also teaching her that mothers and fathers take separate roles in the actual babymaking process but beyond that, both mummies and daddies can and should do all parenting-type things?

I agree separating DN from her mother is best avoided if at all possible. It's hard when DN's crying about how she wants to stay with my brother full-time - but this happens in phases and at other times she's happy enough to go to her mother's. And it means DN's going to be stuck in the situation for a long time (and I think Godowneasy will prove right that this will be a many-headed hydra).

You might find some helpful advice on the transwidows thread in the feminism section. It's women whose husbands/exes have decided to transition, but many have children and the issues will be parallel, so you'll be talking to other people who've had to negotiate a similar minefield.

One of the problems with this is likely to be, if your DN is able to accept her mother as Daddy A, that if (likely when) that person does start to deal with the real problems that have precipitated this transition, they may decide to detransition. Which is likely to be even more confusing for your DN.

Wow, what a tricky situation :/

Perhaps a professional family mediator is the productive way forward? One that offers child-inclusive services? Mediators aren’t like therapists in that they are qualified to give legal advice in regards to residential agreements etc.

DB and ex would be able to have solo sessions with the mediator to explain their personal positions, and the mediator would also be able to talk to niece separately (and would be properly trained to do this in an age appropriate way).

They could aim for an agreement in terms of a common language for describing the family situation in a manner that works for all, including outside agencies such as the school.

Having a professional third party can take a lot of pressure off of all sorts of difficult family situations, and the bonus of doing it with a mediator is that legal positions will be clarified (which may be very useful if this does ever end up with DB applying for full custody, but will hopefully bring resolution before that kind of escalation takes place).

That poor child, I can only wish you all the best as you try to be the best Aunt to someone who is clearly being emotionally and psychologically abused by the narcissistic demands of her mother

I think maybe you'll have to tell DN that daddy and daddy A made her, she came out of daddy A tummy like children come out of their mummies tummy but she is daddy A. Make sure everyone refers to her as daddy A to support DN recognition of her in that role.

Yes, I agree. And this is the line my brother and I have been taking throughout, and all the other adults of DN's acquaintance who are, as it were, on "our side" too (eg our paternal aunt is "our side" but DN's mother's relatives and friends are "her side" - the two groups aren't actually oppositional though; they're just entirely separate and don't interact at all).

But DN's mother isn't taking this line at all. DN's mother is following her usual pattern of prioritising her own needs/wants over DN's - she's pushing "my gender identity is sacrosanct; as part of this my sex may not be acknowledged" instead of recognising that for DN's sake the distinction between the two needs to be made.

Fermats thank you for suggesting the transwidows thread. I considered it, but felt like I'd be intruding because I'm not actually a transwidow myself. So I posted here, because this board's shit-hot on the topic of ex-partners fucking up the kids by prioritising themselves and how to mitigate the damaging effects on the children. But I will stick my head in over there too and see if they can help at all.

BettyDuMonde - thank you. Professional family mediator definitely sounds like an option worth exploring. The process may end up hampered by DN's unwillingness to co-operate constructively or it may not but it sounds like an eminently sensible avenue to explore. Will raise the possibility with DBro tomorrow, as it is obviously up to him to decide on courses of actions and my role to be supportive and follow his lead.

AuntieNameChange you are so right that this child’s mother is putting her own need to “prioritize her own identity thing over her daughter’s emotional needs”. This is one of the saddest threads I’ve ever read on here. I’m so glad to know she has her (biological) dad and you to keep a level head and prioritize objective reality over gaslighting a 5 yr old.

Also she will see you with your dd of the same age and that will help her with the “compare and contrast” and critical thinking. Always tell her the truth with kindness and love. Who knows what the future will hold but when she gets to early teens I think she has more say in who she lives with and if things have deteriorated (hopefully not) with her bio mum she will be free to choose to live with her dad.

Regards to DN wanting to call you ‘mum’ - obviously this isn’t appropriate, but could you allow her to pick a special nickname for you (perhaps you already have one, in which case, ignore this)?

DN’s chastisement by her biomother for using the ‘wrong’ terms (which isn’t helped by changing the new preferred name more than once!) is probably quite upsetting, after all, slipping up on a loved one’s new name is a very natural, human thing to do for people of all ages, and DN isn’t doing it to upset her biomother.

Giving DN some special ‘naming rights’ for you might help restore a little certainty and a little self esteem to DN, without infringing on your DD’s (rightful, understandable) claim to you (and having seen DN’s mum seemingly disappear, DD probably feels a need for reassurance that her mama isn’t going anywhere).

As an example, my son has been raised with two ‘fake’ grandparents (the parents of a friend of mine who died almost 20 years ago). It didn’t seem right to encourage him to call them Nana and Grandpa, but equally, they are far too important in his life for him to call them by their first names, because that’s what everyone else does.

For some forgotten reason, he named them ‘Disney’ and ‘Bird’ and he still calls them that now (and he’s at uni)!

How bloody awful of this mother to tell her daughter that she isn't her mother. She was when she had her. Whatever she 'identifies as' now, for whatever reasons, should not be a source of such trauma for the 5 year old dd.
I absolutely agree that Gaslighting is emotional abuse. Been there. Been fucked up. Seen through the fog. But I was 23. She's 5, and this is child abuse.

It just breaks my heart to think she wants a mum so bad and she is shut out from acknowledging the reality of the person she lives with! Did her bio mum change her parenting behaviour at all when she transitioned? By that I mean does she think that dads parent in a way that precludes her from certain signs of affection of ways of playing together? Or has parenting staying neutral?

How old was DN when her mum transitioned?

This must be so confusing for DN.

So from when she was tiny she was calling her mother ‘mummy, mama’ etc and now her mum expects her to change this to Daddy, with no explanation or even compassion for getting it wrong.

Sounds pretty abusive to me.

Oh wow. That must be so hard for DN if her mother won't even acknowledge she gave birth to her

Ida DN was around ~2 when biomum [useful shortening; should have thought of it myself!] transitioned; I can't remember precisely because I can't tie it to any specific dates I can verify. She was just under a year old when they split.

I honestly can't comment on whether biomum has changed her parenting style. She and I got on very well (I thought) while she was with DBro, I accepted her as a member of the family, we talked about personal shit, I thought we were building a good SIL-style relationship and all was well - and then she kicked off one day and I discovered that she'd somehow got it into her head that I was evil and terrible and my DD was a dreadful influence that she needed to keep DN away from, and that she'd been giving my brother shit about me for months, and that the fact biomum never popped in with DN for a cuppa or a chat or anything despite living literally next door wasn't because she was tired or busy or whatever but because she was actively avoiding me.

It was a bit (read: fucking enormous) of a shock, and my initial response was all "argh, I must have fucked up, I need to make it better, oh god what do I do" headless chicken flailing.

And then I stopped, and asked myself "What would Mumsnet do?" Applied the distilled wisdom of this board that I've gleaned over the years, and disengaged. Then, due to (a) me hardly ever getting out and (b) biomum moving a mile away in a direction I never go and so using different local shops and (c) her point-blank refusal to do any handovers of DN on the grounds of being unwilling to risk coming face-to-face with me (which baffles me to this day) - until DN started school I hadn't actually seen biomum since she and DBro split.

So I really honestly can't comment on how her parenting may have changed! All I've got to go on is what I'm getting from DN, and what DBro reports about his interactions with biomum, and the occasional comment from DD's father (who biomum stops and chats to if she sees him around).

That looks like a massive dripfeed, doesn't it? Sorry. I said in the OP biomum has issues best characterised as some sort of Cluster-B disaster area; this is what I was getting at. It just didn't seem strictly relevant to the immediate issue, but obviously it indirectly is.

Also she will see you with your dd of the same age and that will help her with the “compare and contrast” and critical thinking. Always tell her the truth with kindness and love.

I need to keep this in mind. I do 'truth with kindness and love' as best I can. It's just really hard to figure out what that looks like in this specific context!

And another thank you Betty - a special nickname is another excellent idea that sounds well worth pursuing. And while I'm aware of how DN's biomum's identity situation is confusing for DD too, and trying to help her understand it, I hadn't considered what effect the very fact of DN's mother suddenly disappearing (still spoken of, but never seen) may have had.

That's another thing I'm really struggling to navigate, actually - how best to help DD understand all this, bearing in mind I need to (a) teach her about reproductive biology and her own specifically (b) prepare her for the world of shit she's probably looking at facing as an adult thanks to her reproductive biology (c) ensure she understands the importance of being sensitive to DN's circumstances and has the tools to navigate the discrepancy between the aspects of biomum's worldview that are totally at odds with everything I'm doing in terms of (a) and (b).

I'm looking it as though biomum and I were utterly wedded to separate and incompatible religions. That would be best tackled by acknowledging and respecting that we each believe different things, and agreeing not to teach DN as fact any facet of our own belief system that's incompatible with the others; and helping DN to understand that these belief systems are our own personal takes on reality and it's okay that they're different so long as we're all being decent and civilised towards one another, and then teaching her everything we can about the reality that our belief systems are built on.

Does that sound about right, in terms of How Not To Fuck DN Up Psychologically? And if it is about right, how the hell do we get biomum to understand that we can't actually enact this method of Not Fucking Up DN unless she's on board with it? Because it is very fucking difficult to get her to acknowledge the reality that the belief systems are based on ie her own actual sex as evidenced by her having conceived, gestated and birthed a child.

And I don't know how to help DD understand just what the hell was going on when DN kicked off on the school run this afternoon, because I don't know how to explain it in a way that will help a five year old to understand that biomum is indoctrinating DN into her "religion" instead of teaching her the difference between a belief system and actual material reality, and more to the point is teaching her that the belief system is reality regardless of the empirical evidence of DN's own senses, and that this is messing with DN's head and causing her to lash out.

I'd contact social services as it sounds like the little girl needs professional help and support.

Hi there OP, and sorry for interrupting your thread.

We just wanted to say that we have no reason at all to believe this OP isn't genuine. They have indeed been here since 2012, with a long and consistent posting history.

I suspect some of your questions do actually have an answer within the law as it stands and that’s one of the reasons I think a pro family mediator is the best place to start.

Children have rights under UN law (Declaration of the rights of the child 1924 & 1959, I think the relevant bits are articles 7&8) and English law (Children’s Act 1989) and a mediator can make this clear to biomum.

For instance, it is not currently permissible to change a child’s birth certificate to reflect a parents new gender identity - in law, biomum retains the title ‘mother’ even if they legally become a man.

This document is intended to advise trans parents, but there is a lot here that will be of use/interest to your DB. Trans parents are advised to give lots of adjustment time to children, and to be flexible in their agreements with the other parent (for example, it is considered reasonable for a parent to insist the trans ex partner does not ‘dress’ in their new gender identity in front of the children for an agreed period of time, although it isn’t reasonable to insist on that forever).

www.gires.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/Court-Information-for-Trans-Parents.pdf

Seriously, if this were me, I would get the legal advice first and figure everything else out with the legalities as the baseline. Get an agreed plan in place with DN at the centre, and let the mediator explain the legal and moral duties that biomum has to her daughter.

Your DN is very lucky to have you in her life, especially next door.