My niece is being abused and I can't help her

[AuntieNameChange]

It's fucking horrible and I don't know how best to tackle this going forward. Name-changed, obviously, but been around (mostly lurking) since 2012.

Brief background to remove the need for a ton of questions about situation: DBro and I have an excellent relationship and live next door to each other. We each have one DD aged five. Share school runs, babysit at a moment's notice, act as second parent for each other as needed - the works. DN is with DBro very slightly more than 50% of the time, and he's classed as resident parent for administrative purposes basically because he was the one who went part-time to take on the domestic-shitwork-childcare-admin role (and did it properly too). If I say "we" instead of "I" in this post I'm meaning me and DBro together, because we're trying to keep a united front for DN's sake and he's given me permission to post and ask for advice.

DN was a toddler when her parents split. Shortly afterwards her mother announced she is now a man. This is categorically not a case of lifelong gender dysphoria; she admitted herself her decision to identify as a man was prompted by the realisation that her relationship with my brother would not be resumed. With my amateur psychologist hat on and knowing a lot of specifics of her history, her whole life's being driven classic borderline personality symptoms as a result of early trauma and early sexual trauma which she's not acknowledging.

She made some attempts to engage with therapy before the sudden decision to declare herself a man, but retreated instead of engaging with services because she for whatever reasons wasn't able to accept and start dealing with the underlying traumas that are driving her. And now she's identified into the trans label, mental health services are duty-bound to affirm her gender identity and not investigate it at all in case they're accused of conversion therapy, which is effectively labelling all of the underlying trauma as out-of-bounds in a therapy context.

Since the split DN's mother has repeatedly severely verbally chastised her for calling her "mum", and has gone through several variations of a male-parent name which DN has been compelled to comply with. The latest male-parent name she's decided to adopt is "Daddy [malename]" despite repeatedly assuring my brother that she would always respect his wish to retain "Daddy" for himself.

Flipside of that: I recently overheard DN arguing with DD - DN was defending her own right to call me "mum". A couple of months ago we all went to see Dsis - DN took DSis aside at one point to confide a secret, which turned out to be "everyone else has got a mother but I don't." These little moments keep happening and they are breaking my heart.

She's just started school. All the other kids have got a mother - even ones with separated parents. All the other kids have got some vague notion of an adult woman from whom they originated. If any one of her classmates actually had two gay men as parents, they'd still know they were made inside a woman and have that knowledge of their origins. I'm guessing DN wants to fit in with the others by finding commonality of experience - and DBro and I (and extended family) are trying to cope with this by reassuring DN that she does of course have a mother, just like all the other children, her mother just likes to go by a different name and dress a bit differently to most other mothers etc.

I'm pretty sure that this is the best way to tackle this particular issue - acknowledging mother wishes to present as male while also acknowledging the sex-based reality that mother is indeed where DN originated.

But the trouble - as I became acutely aware when DN blew up at me and DD on the way home from school today - is that, whenever DN asks her mother (in a roundabout, five year old sort of way) "are you really my mum?" the response she's getting is a very definite negative. The precise words DN used today didn't sound like her, didn't sound natural to a five year old, did sound exactly like her mother - she's parroting what she's been told. Based on the parroting it's clear the message she's being given is "FFS I am so sick and tired of people trying to tell me I'm not a boy! Of course I am a boy! Stop calling me a girl!" rather than an acknowledgement that she is indeed DN's mother.

DN is being gaslight by her own mother.

How the hell do we help her?

It's obvious, seeing DN, that she's suffering ongoing psychological problems as a result of this situation - unsurprisingly, because gaslighting fucks people up at the best of times! - and we're starting to feel that DN could probably do with some professional input to help her deal with the situation she's in. But if the professionals are all bound by this instruction from on high to affirm gender identities at all costs, DN is just going to end up facing yet more gaslighting from the therapists who are supposed to help her. Worse, DBro's going to be cast as the abuser, despite being mentally stable and a good parent who does his best to put his child's needs first.

DN's being abused, we can see it's fucking her up, we need to get her out - but that's a fucking serious path to go down and there's no guarantee it would work; it could well end up fucking DN up in other ways.

What the hell do we do? How do I navigate this with integrity and honesty and a desire to prioritise DN's welfare over her mother's gender identity wishes, without inadvertently fucking DN up in a different direction?

Please, no critical remarks about my interpretation of DN's mother's gender identity. It doesn't actually matter to me what's going on in her head - what matters to me and what I need help with is helping my niece to grow into a resilient and mentally-healthy adult despite the adverse situation she finds herself in.

I won't lie to DN and say she wasn't made in "Daddy [malename]'s" stomach. I won't lie to her and say that the type of body that can grow babies can somehow turn into the type of body that provides half the ingredients and none of the labour in the baby-making process. I refuse to lie to her about biology.

And I'm acutely aware that I'm the only acknowledged female role model she's got. She's watching me and she's learning how women navigate the world and what women should expect from the world. I need to be mindful of the messages I'm giving her - I will not teach her that women accept and submit to gaslighting; I will not teach her that this is normal; I will not teach her that she should accept abuse.

I really need some help navigating all this.

This might be one of the hardest threads to read and process that I've ever read. 'Biomum' for biological mother has got to be one of the best and saddest terms I've seen. As I have said in jest, Clinton's would have a field day.
Anyone reading this who doesn't have a complicated family structure to juggle, count your blessings.

I work in mental health (NHS). We are not 'duty bound to affirm gender identity' and there is no 'instruction from on high'.

Where did you get this idea from? And why do you know so much about this persons therapy? 

And also, what mental health trust is this that they have 'therapists' multiple?

This is all hard for DN to get her head around but I’m confused about why you think it’s abuse. If her mum identifies as male then the explanation to DN is that she has two daddies. If she’s interested in reproduction then you can discuss how she grew in Daddy A’s tummy, but only if she brings it up. I would just go with the language her mum/dad uses to avoid confusing her further. If there are other concerns about their parenting all you can do (unless it really is abusive in which case you report) is provide stability and calm when she’s with you / DB. And obviously try your best to present a united front with the other parent despite what you really think.

Honestly? You all are far kinder than I, and more tactful too. So, take the following advise and run it through a kindness filter first.

The problem is the kid is five, but needs a very complex ADULT situation explained using words that a five year old can understand, accept, and be reassured by. I'm sure you can do the next part far better than me.

Take the kid aside and explain to her that yes she does indeed have a mother but for whatever reason, her mother is currently mentally ill. Tell the kid that asking her mother if the woman is her mother is just triggering an avalanche of mentally ill nonsense which then upsets the daughter.

The daughter absolutely needs to stop asking this question of her mother because her mother will NOT give the kid the reassurance that the kid needs. As long as the kid continues to ask, the mother will respond in the same way and then the kid will continue to react to mom's response. The cycle is a cycle and what do we know about doing the same thing and expecting a different result?

This is a case of just fucking stop asking the damn question.

The kid does not get persistence cookie points. Talk to the kid in a way that the kid can understand, about the concept of mental illness. Tell her that her mother (and "fauxfather" and real father and other relatives) still loves the kid very much but for now, that question (when directed at the mother) is off the table. Just stop, nothing good will come of repeating the question a million times and expecting a different answer.

FGS. When will this shit stop?! Why the hell are people bending over backwards to enforce in this poor little girls mind that she doesn't have a mother but two fathers?! (not aimed at you OP - your emotional turmoil is clear). When did the adults needs trump that of their child?!
Yes, she has a mother. No, she doesn't have two fathers. No, you can't change sex.
I'm sorry but this is damaging and real. If my DD said she thought she was a giraffe and requested a neck extension would I go along with it?! Would I fuck! i would seek the appropriate treatment for her mental health issue.

Actually, the more I think about this OP, the more I think you should actually tell your DN the truth.

Her mother is still her mother. She sincerely, but mistakenly, believes she is a man, and that is very sad for her and makes her very confused. But nothing will change the fact that, as a woman, she gave birth to your DN and was her mother. We may go along with pretending so as to be nice to her, because she feels very sad and confused. But the truth is that you cannot change sex. You can ask people to treat you as if you were the opposite sex, and often this is a kind thing to do, but it's still a form of kind pretending, not real.

@RivkaMumsnet no need to apologise for interrupting - I'm glad you're able to check out posts that look suspect because of volatile topical issues and I expect everyone else on this thread is too!

PsychedelicSheep I don't actually know loads of information about biomum's therapy, just the one thing really: that she's not getting any, except for gender therapy following the "affirmative" model - I do not want to go into specifics but biomum is receiving treatment via a neighbouring trust specifically because the services she was accessing in the local trust, whom she approached initially and of which I do not know specifics, wanted to investigate whether other possible psychological issues might be the cause when she presented with a sudden-onset gender identity incongruence and a long history of prior involvement with mental health services.

PenguinSaidEverything we are telling DN that she has two parents that love her very much, that the parent who carried her is her mother, and that it doesn't matter whether the people being your parents are men or women or martians for that matter so long as they love you and care for you well. The bit that I think is abusive - the bit that's clearly having a damaging effect on DN's mental health and interfering with the development of a healthy and resilient adult mind - is the bit where biomum is adamant that she is not DN's mother.

Betty linked saved for tomorrow, thank you again! I've been resisting posting about this whole mess for a long time (because of that volatile topical situation thing) and I didn't think there was anything constructive that could actually be done aside from DBro trying to do damage control himself - you've proved me wrong so I'm glad I finally posted at last.

Fermats I think I agree with you, because that's the line I've been taking with DD recently, almost word for word. But I don't feel 100% secure that this is definitely in line with the Good Parenting Principles I've accumulated here and try to guide my own parenting with. I'm secure enough to make a judgement call and decide to take this line with my own child, but I don't feel qualified to judge whether it's the right parenting decision for someone else's child. Does that make sense?

I think if you can, getting your niece professional therapy would be the starting point. They will be able to determine if she needs removing from the home, and so that responsibility won't have to fall on you. They will also help you handle this for her. It's heart breaking to read what's going on and I think those who can't read between the lines of why this qualifies as abuse, should probably refrain from commenting. It's seems a fair bit of emotional abuse is happening here, where by her mother has effectively abandoned her.

It definitely sounds as though biomum is unable to meet DN's emotional needs effectively. I would be concerned about her lack of patience and emotional responsiveness to DN.
However, children are very adaptable to new circumstances and are extremely open minded when the information is presented to them clearly but age appropriately. Explain that biomum used to have a mummy's body so did carry and give birth to DN but because biomum had 'a man's mind' (probably easiest way of explaining gender identity to a 5yo) they are now a daddy.
In regards to the way biomum treats DN I would possibly give SS a heads up as it sounds as though both biomum and DN need support from professionals.
You sound like a fantastic role model for DN though and she is lucky to have you and your brother x

Is there any way that you can explain to DN that Daddy A was your mummy- cue pictures of mummy pregnant and holding baby DN.
Then she decided that she feels more comfortable being a boy. Now we call mummy Daddy A instead of mummy

Yes that’s a very simple explanation. She was your mummy and gave birth to you like mummies do (photo evidence) but now she wants to be called daddy so we have to be kind to her and pretend that she is your daddy. Daddy A is very confused as most people don’t change like this and she may be angry sometimes but that’s not our fault. It’s because she is very confused and is asking people to call her something different which is very confusing to them and people don’t always remember to get it right. So Daddy As feelings are in a muddle but none of that is your fault DN, and we’ll just try to help her by being kind and call her Daddy A. It is confusing isn’t it.

I'm confused as to how telling DN their parent is mentally ill is remotely helpful. Unless you also want to start telling her to keep secrets she is going to tell biomum what's been said. They are going to say no they're not. And then that's even more confusing!
Added on to which none of us know to what extent the gender presentation is a cause/effecr/unrelated to mental illness. None of us are party to their medical notes.

I totally agree that DN must be distressed by the situation but finding a way to express it which both parties are in agreement to is the way forward....as long as both sides are giving different explanations DN will be confused and distressed. Regardless of whether one explanation is more "true". For this reason perhaps mediation may help as someone else suggested. No easy answer but it seems an awful idea to go down the line of trying to explain mental illness to DN, insist that biomum is ill (when she is likely to disagree if DN says this to her?), And you may also then introduce the concept to DN that anyone trans is mentally ill. I think leave that explanation well alone.

Hope you find an answer that can reassure DN.

Substitute he instead of she in my post above. I got it wrong even then.

dirtybadger agreed 100%.

There is no way in hell a child's mind should ever be the battleground for an ideological conflict between adults. It doesn't have to matter that the adults in DN's life believe mutually incompatible things, so long as the adults involved are able to put ideology to one side and work together in the child's best interests.

It's just proving really difficult to practically implement this, because it's necessary to distinguish between the physical observable world and the ideologies - and biomum 's ideology involves conflating the reality with the precepts of the ideology and then... totally denying and rejecting the reality.

Kind of like if biomum had a religion that didn't believe in the phenomenon of gravity, or the existence of written communication, or similar.

Is there a sort of religious equivalent to the transwidows thread? Where ex-partners mess the kids up by refusing to admit their religion is a belief system rather than empirically verifiable reality?

Agreed re not saying 'biomum is mentally ill'. No need to tell DN or DD anything they're likely to interpret as 'biomum is nuts' as this is counterproductive chiefly because it will probably get back to biomum and provoke a shitstorm of epic proportions but also because it takes things from co-operative into oppositional/adversarial territory and is thus Bad Parenting. Have so far covered this by saying 'biomum thinks is a man; makes no sense to me but we have to be kind about it".

... Rereading that ... Dbro instigated the split because he couldn't tolerate biomum's issues manifesting as abuse towards him. He had to tiptoe around her always wondering when the next burst of misplaced aggression was coming when they were together, the need to manage biomums outbursts factored into everything, it was horrible and he couldn't take it any more - and four years down the line she's still making him take it. She's basically still abusing him. DN was crying this morning about having to spend the next two nights at biomum's. Oh God this entire situation is overwhelmingly and unrelentingly SHIT.

Right. Breathe. Flaily panicky catastrophising shit = not helpful.

Practical shit: have given DBro massive verbal infodump (email detailing salient points pending) of suggestions here and my thoughts on their viability. He is taking time to digest. Going forward I will be advocating for the professional family mediation option as it is clearly the most practical, most ethical, and most likely to be productive route forwards.

Have decided against pointing DBro at transwidows thread as would not wish to fuck up their vibe by dumping a male socialised person in an otherwise female-only support space. Still planning to head over there myself.

Will be paying close attention to not just what I say to DN but also how I say it - in terms of effect on DN, 'how I say it' informs 'how she interprets it' regardless of the actual content and I must be mindful not to exacerbate things unwittingly in this way.

Have confirmed with DBro that school have got ample written info appraising them of the specifics of DN's familial circumstances to guide school's handling of the issue. Am encouraging DBro to also go in and speak to DN's teacher in person. Have also highlighted need for adult family to meet and discuss to ensure maximum consistency of approach.

Am still feeling like shit.

I have my own early trauma that's had lifelong effects. When my parents found out they said "Why didn't you tell us? We would have helped ," and I believe them - but DN's going to know that we knew damned well and we didn't get her out of it, and that's going to be problematic if she doesn't understand that didn't was actually couldn't.

But. Yesterday I felt shit and hopeless and could see no way forward. Today I feel shit and hopeless but at least I can see what going forward looks like. This is an improvement.

but DN's going to know that we knew damned well and we didn't get her out of it, and that's going to be problematic if she doesn't understand that didn't was actually couldn't.

This is why seeking advice from professionals is important! When your DN comes to you and her dad and asks you why you didn't get her out of it, you'll have a trail to show her that you did all you could and demonstrate that you couldn't do more. On that point, has your DBro had a chat with his DD's school about what is going on?

As appalling as it is, your DN is going to be far from alone dealing with the fall out from abuse her primary caregiver couldn't prevent. The way family court is (mis)managing a myriad of cases and blithely rubber stamping some level abuse because they think the relationship outweighs the damage is shocking. So many children are forced into damaging situations and so many adults are powerless to protect them. I know this isn't a family court issue, but the narrative of damage still tracks.

I agree with Andro - this is why a formal paper trail, something that will automatically happen by working with a qualified family mediator, is so important.

I totally understand how helpless you feel though - it resonates with my own experience of having a seriously ill daughter of just slightly older than your DN & DD. I’ve had to, in her eyes, ‘force’ her to endure all sorts of invasive medical procedures and have refused to take her home from the hospital, even when she has been bawling her eyes out and begging me to do so.

The reality is, she would die if I didn’t, but that’s not a reality that I can share with a scared and vulnerable 6 year old.

It’s not been at all easy on either of us emotionally, and I don’t expect she will fully understand how much it hurt my soul to not be be able to ‘save’ her from her situation for a decade or two, if ever.

Luckily, I am able to access the hospital psychologist for my own mental health, and I wouldn’t hesitate to suggest that you and/or DB seek similar support to help you get through this with enough resources intact to truly support both your daughters as much as you are able.

Life is complicated and unfair, but we can only do our best within the situations we are given!

I second a PP that advised you to inform social services - your DN's mother needs some sort of mental health evaluation, imo.

Nobody in their right state of mind would put their 5 year old child through this, and on top of her parents splitting up. To insist on this absurdity when your child is at an age where they absolutely need you is not normal. It really is abuse, and will affect your DN.

I really feel sorry for the little girl, and hope you are able to do whatever is best for her.

I suspect the trans issue is sort of a red herring - obviously this is the current manifestation of her mental health problems, but if she was abusing your DB prior to that I expect she would have found something else if it wasn’t this. It sounds like she would always have been a damaging parent.

Therapy for your DN is vital to help her negotiate living with her DM. Even if you find the perfect explanation for DN, or if the DM detransitions, I expect she will still be a gaslighting abusive mother. The underlying problems aren’t going to go away.

The problem is not that the DM is trans, but that the way she is going about dealing with it is so awful and damaging. She could have been trans and perfectly sensitive to her daughter’s needs.

Or she could have fixed on being a Little Mix fan instead and taken that to extreme and damaging levels.

The problem is her parenting.

Update:

Dbro still digesting when he dropped DN off this morning. Biomum took him aside for a chat, the gist of which is she's decided against medical transition and will allow DN to call her "mum" again.

From the sounds of it the change is being driven by her own identity issues rather than a realisation that DN's welfare is paramount, so there will more than likely be other issues presenting themselves further down the line. So DBro is still keeping social services / family mediation options in mind going forward. Also planning meeting with school to keep them updated.

DN was still upset about going to biomum's today; Dbro wants to give it a little while to see if signs of psychological distress abate in light of biomum's u-turn before making concrete plans re outside agencies.

I don't know if she somehow found this thread or if it's just really coincidental timing, but either way, it's a massive weight off, knowing that least this particular issue looks like it's on the path to resolution. Thank you again to everyone who's offered kind words and practical suggestions. It's been a great help.