DM doesn't want to know about DH's controlling behaviour

[sleepingonthesparebed]

It's long and detailed, sorry.

My DH can be rather particular about things to the extent that regularly he makes decisions unilaterally about stuff that affects both of us/the whole family without talking through stuff with me or both of us coming to a decision together. This generally relates to financial stuff even though we both contribute to the finances equally. At times it also relates to non financial stuff.

I am utterly fed up of this and have attempted on a number of times to talk to him about this approach and to explain that as far as I'm concerned then it's selfish and controlling and that he needs to work together with me in the future to make decisions together. When it relates to big financial things then not to involve me is bordering on a deal breaker for me. I consider it controlling.

One example is that we are due to renew our mortgage soon. We've spoken about it in general terms but not made a decision yet as to which to go for. He's researched it all and started to make an application online for a new mortgage but only told me about it right at the end when he expected me to just check the details he'd put in about me. He wanted me to click through and approve it but even apart from the fact that this was not even what we had discussed and decided on jointly, he'd got some fairly basic info about me wrong and got cross when I said that I wouldn't just go ahead and do it and I wasn't simply going to sign something that I didn't know anything about or that we haven't properly discussed together, especially something like a mortgage application.

He denies that he is controlling and when i raise stuff like this with him, he tells me I'm over-reacting because I'm over-worked and stressed and tired. To me, this is gaslighting and minimising what he's doing and minimising that he is controlling over these things including finances and the fact that he's trying to get me to sign up to a mortgage that I know nothing about and haven't been involved in decision making over. It's like walking on egg shells and I feel really pushed into a corner.

At the weekend, in front of DM and DC, something completely unrelated came up in conversation between me and DH which resulted in him shouting at me completely out of the blue. He never shouts and we very rarely have any arguments, even discussions about stuff tend to be calm and out of range of the kids. I had felt so tightly wound about the financial thing over the previous few days and his belittling of the situation that this shouting at me really scared me and I shouted back. I don't even remember what I said to him but because of his sudden shouting at me and the drip drip of the financial stuff and his ignoring of it I felt really under threat. DM and DC saw and heard this bit.

I know that I tried to spell out to him that I was shocked by his sudden shouting at me over something that really was so random and unnecessary. I also tried to explain to him that I was feeling under attack not only from his shouting but also the way he's tried to deal with the financial stuff without me.

As predicted DH used this as an opportunity to try and say that this reaction was again because I am over worked and tired (I'm neither of those things) and that I was making a mountain out of a mole hill and so on.

DM has - and I can't believe this even now - apologised to DH on my behalf for shouting back at him. She went and said sorry to him for my reaction. She hasn't been aware until then of the financial stuff or that I feel overly controlled by him or the gas lighting.

I told her that evening after everything had calmed down that she had no right to do that "on my behalf" without knowing the full story from me and that if she did know the story then she wouldn't be apologising.

I tried to explain to her (as much as I could with him and the DC in the house and while trying to put toddler DS into bed) the gist of the financial and controlling and gas lighting situation but she seems adamant that I'm making it up or that I've got the wrong end of the stick.

She seems unable to comprehend that this financial control and minimising of the blame and shouting at me for no reason might be inappropriate. She also doesn't see that she did anything wrong by apologising on my behalf for my reaction to DH.

Whilst DH and I try to work through our own differences about this (another post for another day and god knows where that will lead us), I seem to have a DM who doesn't believe me when I tried to reach out to her for help and tell her I am upset and scared about being in a controlling relationship.

She's since texted me saying that she wants nothing to do with this incident any more and doesn't want to hear me complaining about something which doesn't exist. She refuses to believe that there's anything wrong with DH behaviour.

I feel really let down and isolated. I feel that the person that I could have turned to for help or advice or support simply isn't there for me and also doesn't even believe me when I try and explain the situation. I'm scared that if there really is a DH situation in the future when I might need to call on her for support then she'll not believe me.

So I feel stuck. I have other (limited) support in RL in the event things with DH develop but I'm stuck with the knowledge that my own mother doesn't believe me. I'm tempted to just email her this whole post by way of explanation as I don't think I have the emotional energy at the moment m to sit down and explain it to her face to face, knowing that she too is likely to minimise it and defend DH.

Can someone help me see a way through this with DM? I'm not avoiding the DH stuff as this is being dealt with separately but my current worry is how to get my DM back onside.

Don't want to read and run but why are you up at 4am? Does DH have what DM perceived as a 'good job' and 'provide well' and is her keenness to minimise because she thinks you are rocking your financially stable marriage? Does she come from a background or lived within a marriage with financial instability? Something is driving her here. How dare she apologise on your behalf! Sending you a massive hug,

OP you must feel so let down by your DM's disloyalty, and DH's attitude. I'm not surprised you can't sleep!
I don't have anything useful to say or advice to give but I wanted you to know that your feelings are valid.

Can it be that your DM is used to "men handling things"? A generation thing rather than this specific case?
Maybe rather than trying to agree on the current situation you can tell her that not everything is as it seems between husband and wife and you need her on your corner regardless of the details.
I'm sorry, I struggle with the idea of your DM apologising on your behalf, but if you want to get her back on board it's the only thing I can think of.

I'm sorry - you have been let down by people who should have your back.
What is your dm usually like?

She should not have apologised for you - you are not a child. But maybe she doesn't understand the underlying situation- could you go out for lunch, say, just the two of you, and explain how you feel?

Your biggest problem is your DH though, as you realise. I think you are right not to enter into any long term financial commitments, such as a mortgage fix, if there is a real possibility of you splitting up.

First of all, sorry you’re going through this. If it’s any consolation, my DM can be like this, in an old fashioned stand by your man kind of way. My DH has been very ill and this has affected his personality. It is extremely difficult to live with and I have considered leaving him. I tried to confide in DM and all she’d say was, ‘Why! You can’t leave DH!’ as though I’d be the biggest bitch in the world to consider my own happiness. It’s affecting the kids too but to her, marriage vows were made for a reason, blah blah. She also put up with loads from my DF (now deceased). Says it was for me and my siblings but I just think she was a martyr and there was no need! It’s like she thinks everyone should suffer as she did.

Anyhow, a very long way of saying I totally understand where you’re coming from. Is there anyone else at all who could maybe help your DH see how he’s behaving? A brother? Male friend? Hugs to you.

Sounds like you have inadvertently married your Dad, or something along these lines.
He is being controlling and there is no excuse for not discussing the mortgage with you but what example of marriage did he grow up with. Was his DF the boss in the family?
Your DM has a weird view of how marriage works, but you must know what her relationship was like, how did that pan out? Did DF leave so she feels you must 'keep DH happy'?
It could be he lacks empathy and cannot see that he needs to include you in important decisions. Can you find other times he was selfish and thoughtless, is it a regular thing?

Thank you for your helpful words. Sorry for the delayed reply but it's been a difficult day and evening.

I was awake at 4 with a wriggling toddler who was finding it tricky to get back to sleep. I find my clearest thoughts tend to be in the smaller hours, maybe as there's less distraction and interference from all the other bullshit floating around.

Long day at work (professional, lots of emotionally tricky things to deal with today) and came back home with kids to a stroppy DH.

DH and I had another heated discussion tonight about everything and nothing. He was going to go out to the pub with his mates and I just asked if he could change his plans so that in the circumstances we could spend a bit of time together to talk, especially as he'd been away for most of the week with work. He went ape shit and made a real fuss. Apparently, he behaves like this because I am "so hostile" and he "has no choice".

I pointed out that I was tired and cross with not being treated as an equal by him and accused him of prioritising social life over family. He went off in a sulk and refused to help get toddler ready for bed or even say goodnight to him. I told him he was behaving like a moody teenager. Older DCs (not his) very distressed for second time this week having overheard all this crap.

He did change his plans and stay at home but has given me the silent treatment all night so far. I focussed on settling the kids and came to bed in my own as I found it unbearable to be in the same room as him behaving like this. He's currently on the sofa in the dark pretending to be asleep. I think he's waiting for me to go down and apologise for being hostile, which I'm simply not going to do. I've tried to go down and encourage him to come up to bed but I'm not going to fight for it.

I texted my mum to say that whilst she's entitled to her views on any matter, it was disappointing that even when I had told her that I am going through some very difficult times in my relationship and that it would have been nice to know that as my mum she had my back, she's has decided to absent herself. Ball is in her court as I've not got the energy to chase her and keep up with fucked up mind games with DH.

This is all so completely fucked up.

Mum brought me and my brother up alone and is a super independent, feminist and sharp minded person, so this behaviour from her is out of character.

DH has, as he has aged, become grumpier. We've DTD three times this year so far. The first time, I fell pregnant and chose (agonisingly) to have an abortion but it didn't work and I miscarried at 13 weeks rather traumatically. DH didn't handle any of this terribly well. "These things happen" is the extent of the conversation we've had about it. Frankly with that attitude I'm surprised that I even managed two more doings of the deed, come to think of it. He is emotionally distant to say the least.

His mum and dad come across as a loving retired couple but I think there are some pretty traditional gender roles in play which may be coming out in DH. He doesn't really have any mates and is quite introvert and reclusive at times.

I think he and I need to find a relationship counsellor to help us talk through things and find a way out of this. I think the abortion/miscarriage is a probable starting point.

I don't want to LTB and I don't want all this to blow up irretrievably but the temptation of just getting the locks changed when he's out is rather high at the moment.

I think too that there may be MH matters creeping in too on DH's part and that it might benefit him to get to the GP and have a conversation. Chance would be a fine thing though.

You can't change other people, only your reaction to them.

DM is choosing not to see your distress. That undoubtedly makes it harder for you to cope with, but you can't make her see it if she doesn't want to. You have to let the hope that she will be 'on your side' go (easier said than done obvs.). I don't know how I'd even begin to forgive my mother for apologising for my behaviour. As a fully grown adult nobody, ever, should be doing that. I'm angry on your behalf!

Your DH is the real issue though, and I get the impression you know that. Well done for not just signing the mortgage - standing up to a bully takes strength and you clearly have that.

The example you give regarding the mortgage is quite trivial imo. You are due to remortgage and he has done all the research, so what? He hasn't forged your signature, he's researched and begun to apply and asked you to add your details. I genuinely don't see that as controlling. DP would be delighted if I did the legwork on something like that.

Unless you don't trust him, the correct response imo was to say that you'd sign it once you'd read the details and were happy.

Is he really 'gaslighting and minimising' or does he genuinely not understand why you're so annoyed? Because neither do I.

Regarding the argument. Your mum - who you describe as an ardent feminist -witnessed it and thinks you were wrong, so maybe you were. You say you can't remember what you said to make him (uncharacteristically) shout, so how can any of us say whether he was wrong or not?

And talking of controlling, you are the one who sulked until he cancelled a night out with friends.

The mortgage is just one of many examples and the point I was trying to make was that it was his paternalistic patronising assumption that I'll just go along with his decision because he's the one who made it. This isn't the only example - just the most recent. I called him out on it as a reason for my reaction to him when he exploded at me out of the blue in front of everyone about something else. Straw that broke the camels back if you like.

He yelled at me randomly; I reacted by shouting defensively because I was all wound up and fearful because of the control stuff and feeling suddenly under attack.

I don't think that I should have to apologise for being made frightened by my husband's irrational and hurtful behaviour. Point is that mother thinks I should and that DH can't understand why I'd be frightened of him. He can't see that someone would have a different view to him and is aggressively defending his position even more now, making me more fearful and concerned, not just for our relationship but for his general well-being (and mine and the kids).

You guys need to stop arguing in front of the kids.

I understand it's stressful...I agree He shouldn't just expect you to sign and agree to things...but your arguments will be impacting on the kids.

Counselling is a good idea.

I just think you sound like hard work op.

You say he never shouts or argues yet now you are using language like fearful and frightened and attack. So after one episode of him shouting, in front of others, you're telling your husband you're frightened of him.

You say you can't remember what you said to make him shout yet now it is a random undeserved outburst.

You say your feminist mother thinks you should apologise after witnessing the incident, so now she is making you feel let down and isolated.

It just all feels dramatic and unnecessary to me.

I feel that your dh's position would be that you get unnecessarily angry about trivial things, that you accuse him of serious things like gaslighting and manipulation and being frightening without justification, that you guilt him into cancelling nights out with friends, that you would rather accuse your mum than accept that you yourself contributed to the argument.

You say that making financial decisions without talking to you is a dealbreaker so when are you seeing a solicitor about the divorce?

Maybe there are other examples that would help me to see your pov but from what you've said this should've been a minor disagreement that you're making into an enormous issue.

"the point I was trying to make was that it was his paternalistic patronising assumption that I'll just go along with his decision because he's the one who made it."

Or thought you'd 'go along with it' because you're in a committed loving relationship and trust each other to make good decisions that benefit your family.

It's only paternalistic and patronising if you think he would've been similarly furious if it had been you who had done the research and found the mortgage product.

Maybe you need a break from each other

Op, I agree with you. Being shouted at, out of the blue is not nice. For someone to do that to me in front of my DM would really piss me off and to do it in front of my dcs would be a major issue in my mind. Totally unacceptable.
Have you done a self-check just to consider whether you are stressed and getting things out of proportion? It sounds like you have.

If your dp researched all the mortgage stuff and got the application started, that’s fine. But equally you are entitled to say, let me read it, understand it first.
Could it be that he’s feeling excluded given the lack of intimacy and you not letting him sort the mortgage made him feel even less valued. I also think you are right to consider counselling. But could you get away for a weekend, just the two of you first and try to reconnect?

As for your dm, she did exactly what my dm would have done and I HATED it. In her eyes the man was always right, should be allowed their own way, should be tolerated and pandered to, no matter how unreasonable. I think it was a mix of 1950s values and that men are “wage earners” and must be hung onto at all cost. Just put it down to her age. She shouldn’t be interfering in your marriage, whatever the situation.

I hope it gets sorted

Is Gloomy the husband or the mother? I can't quite tell!

OP this is very similar to my situation. In the end, when I managed to find a couple of people who believed and supported me (one was a therapist and one a brilliant friend) I managed to leave and due to my mother's awful behaviour over the situation I cut all ties with her too. She very publicly 'stayed friends with him' because he'd done 'nothing wrong'. He was a bastard of the highest order. I have never looked back and I don't miss my M at all. She literally never had my back my whole life and it's much better not to have her in it. It's hard to leave a hater. But so worth it. Have you got any friends you can trust who aren't in his thrall? Have you seen a counsellor?

OP this sounds very difficult, I'm sorry.

My own DM basically followed a flow chart of
Does he earn more than 30k
If no - everything is his fault
If yes - everything is Ford's fault

Unsurprisingly, we are no longer in contact.

Why are you asking us for advice, you already know what to do.

What a lovely, supportive post nightwatch

Gloomsy is being a bit ridiculous imo. My XH once shouted at me unexpectedly even though he’d been a lovely guy until then - and that reason alone made it frightening.

Not everybody fancies having someone take over the legwork, especially for financial decisions. If my partner and I discussed we needed a new car, I wouldn’t be thrilled to find out he’d just up and decided which car, how much, and under what conditions, and that I was just to go along with it. It’s a remortgage and her money as well, it should’ve been discussed by both parties not just presented as a fait compli for OP to sign and just meekly go along with.

I can see what Gloomy is saying. The examples given don't seem so bad and the two people that know you best agree. Perhaps you are over tired or stressed? Im not saying your mum should have apologised to him, that was wrong, but perhaps there's something in what they're saying.

However the shouting and sulking from the pair of you makes a horrible environment for the kids.

Yikes! Horrible for your DM not to have your back. Does she know about the abortion/miscarriage? I’m very surprised if she did, that she’d act this way.

Of course the real issue for you as you know is the relationship with DH.

I would have asked how long you’ve been together, how was the decision made to know the figure you could use to purchase the house you’re in, found the mortgage etc in the first place. As in - were there established “roles”? If there were, and it was DH, then I’d be one for saying over reaction on mortgage application. However, if that’s not the history, then of course you’re not over reacting on the mortgage application.

The situation, though, is not about the mortgage application nor your DM reaction. It’s about the lack of communication, interaction, intimacy etc in your relationship with DH. You both sound very stressed and close to breaking point. I’d strongly recommend couples counselling or at least go yourself.

Just do you know, there are relationships where there are roles (tasks) divvied up. For myself, DH does the finances. He does the research, then comes to tell me he’s chosen x mortgage and why. I sign after reading through. I’m not lacking in understanding, it’s something DH feels the need to research (he researched everything he does to the Nth degree) so I trust he’s made the right decision. There are other decisions that I make. We talk about these. That’s the big issue here. No communication. Please please seek out that counselling. Even alone. Best of luck to you op

There is a whole lot of other stuff going on here outside of the mortgage application. It sounds like there is a lot of pent up emotions and resentment regarding the abortion. Has DH always been the one to make the big decisions? Was the termination his decision? Or do you now blame him for the decision you both made?

You both need to go to counseling frankly. Even if you went alone, I think it would help you find some perspective on what's been going on and give you some things to work on together at home.