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Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Hoarding help

40 replies

siblingofahoarder · 01/09/2018 00:40

My sister is a hoarder. She has a partner and two children (7 & 9), and lives in a small 2 bed house. The children share, and it won't be big enough for them both longer-term. We rarely go round to their house, partly because there is nowhere to sit (barely enough space for them really, let alone visitors). The children have a small table and chairs in the living room they use for eating and crafts; that is always accessible even if nothing else is.

There is a path just wide enough to walk through the living room (which is open plan with the kitchen, and the front door opens directly into it), and enough room to move around in the kitchen, though there's lots of stuff on worksurfaces and around the edge of the floor. The bathroom is relatively uncluttered. The children's bedroom has little floorspace anyway as it's so small and has two beds in, but the shelves and cupboard are overflowing. The adults' bedroom has stuff everywhere (just enough room to walk to the bed and window).

Some of it is the stereotypical things that might come in handy some day (e.g. stuff that can't be recycled but she is unwilling to throw it away), some is old clothes (both hers and children's) and cloth nappies, some is toys (they don't need that many, nor have space for them). I would never say there's such a thing as too many books though, and at least most of those are on shelves Wink And some is temporarily stored for charity volunteering she does (and therefore changes regularly).

She is unwilling to get rid of things without getting money for them (though obviously they are not earning her anything while filling up her house, so I suspect this is somewhat of an excuse), so I have tried to help her sell it before, but only managed to get rid of a small proportion, and I'm sure more has accumulated since anyway, as the underlying issue has not been resolved.

They don't have the use of their dining table as it and the chairs are always covered in stuff. The coat cupboard is mouldy, though it's the sort that might be anyway (with no ventilation, on a poorly-insulated external wall), but it would be lower-risk if emptier.

The house is obviously more of a fire hazard than average (they don't smoke), but not dirty, just messy. There are various DIY bits that could be done more easily if the mess was cleared, but nothing very urgent, mostly cosmetic. They have had tradespeople in to fit a bathroom, and fix things when necessary.

Her children seem fairly well-adjusted. The older one is somewhat anxious, though that could be because he was parented less responsively than the younger one in the early years, and he seems to be growing out of it anyway. They have good relationships with friends at school etc, and their cousins. Obviously their friends don't visit the house, but they meet elsewhere, and since their school is some distance away and their peers don't live locally, it's unlikely they'd go round there anyway. She is otherwise pretty organised and does lots of activities with them (both in and out of the house), and cooks from scratch every day (don't know how; I couldn't stand cooking in her house!).

Her partner hates it but hasn't been able to make much difference. I've been told they could afford a bigger house but he doesn't want to move in case the new house ends up like this one.

She hates any of us (me, my sister, my mum, her partner) mentioning it, or even referring to it indirectly (e.g. saying "we can't go round to X's" when making plans). She knows it's an issue but doesn't seem willing/able to do anything about it at this stage.

I don't want to involve any authorities myself, as I'm sure they would make things worse, not better (certainly overall, even if not in that specific regard) and she might never forgive me anyway. So that would likely be a net negative. Plus the children don't seem to be suffering from it particularly so far.

I've read various websites on the topic, and there doesn't seem to be a great deal someone else can do about it. They seem to need to be ready to deal with it themselves.

Any advice from someone who has had a hoarding family member, or has been a hoarder themselves, and got over it? What would you have found helpful for someone to do/say? I don't want her to end up living alone with piles of newspapers when she's 60. And obviously it would be better for the whole family if it was resolved asap.

OP posts:
siblingofahoarder · 01/09/2018 00:51

Oh, and she also has thousands of emails.

OP posts:
DeadDoorpost · 01/09/2018 00:55

No real help but my DM is a hoarder. DB reckons it's because she doesn't have much in her life and so items she has now have too much of an importance.

I also reckon she's autistic but never diagnosed (been getting diagnosed myself atm and see a lot of it in her etc) but when i mentioned it to her she automatically denied she had a "problem". Which she does. She has a mental problem of sorts to have to hold on to things, including clothes she wore as a child in the 60s. She makes sure I can't find them whenever I go round there so I can't throw them out.

What's helped her recently is having to move into a smaller place and being told by her employers that she has to get rid of things as they're a hazard (she works in a boarding school) and they saw her stuff.

We sit with her and talk about the items to find out why she's kept them. Sometimes it's taken gets until she accepts she needs to throw something away, other times it's a lot easier.

Hopefully you'll find a way to help. It's not healthy but the pride in my DM's voice when she rings me to tell me she threw something away (just so she can be praised... that's a whole other thread) makes it worth it to me

siblingofahoarder · 01/09/2018 01:04

I'm autistic, and probably also dyspraxic, and she definitely has traits of those. But when I've mentioned that, she says she doesn't want a "label".

I know I would have issues being organised with having too much stuff, so I am fairly minimalist (though not to the opposite extreme).

It doesn't help that if I want to give something of mine away that has sentimental value (to my family, at least, even if not really to me any more), they (most vocally my mum) insist I have to offer it to them first, and my hoarding sister is the one most likely to take it. But if I don't, and they find out later I gave it to a stranger, I get told off.

OP posts:
Sisterlove · 01/09/2018 01:04

How and where do the DC do homework? That will get to be more of an issue as they get older?

If in the UK I think SS would be concerned about the DC. from a safeguarding viewpoint.

siblingofahoarder · 01/09/2018 01:11

I assume they do homework at their eating/crafting table. She has been known to clear the dining table occasionally (most of what's on there is charity stuff), so maybe she will do that for them permanently when they outgrow their small table.

OP posts:
siblingofahoarder · 01/09/2018 01:31

By the way, she doesn't seem to actively buy much unnecessary stuff (except food "bargains", which of course get eaten, or at least given to me once they're out of date!). She's not the car boot sale type of hoarder.

It's more that she just doesn't get rid of anything that was ever of use, even if it's not now (like clothes long outgrown), or anything people give them, even if they don't need it. So it's been gradually mounting up for years.

She does lend clothes to my other sister (my child is the same age as my hoarder sister's youngest, so I rarely get them), but wants them back afterwards.

If I give them anything for birthdays etc, it's generally just food, so as not to add to the problem.

OP posts:
WittyFuck · 01/09/2018 04:06

You can get money for trading in old vlothes, junk etc by weight. Would taking 20 black bags filled with stuff and going home with a few £20s motivate her?

siblingofahoarder · 01/09/2018 14:32

@WittyFuck Maybe, but she is so sensitive about anyone mentioning it now, I don't know how I'd suggest that to her without an outright defensive rejection.

I did post a recent newspaper article about hoarding on Facebook last night, in the hope that she'd see it and maybe absorb some of the advice without feeling pressured by someone discussing it directly.

OP posts:
Isitovernow · 01/09/2018 14:42

Both my parents are hoarders and myself and my siblings have tried and failed miserably to get them to get rid of some things. They keep the tops of soft drinks bottles, receipts, tags from clothes, all mail, old school books we had when we were 30 years younger, old furniture..you name it...the house is full to the brim.

I see some traits of hoarding in me too so I've actively worked on getting rid of things. My goodness, it feels good to get rid of things. But it ain't so easy to convince a hoarder of that!

AnnieAnoniMoose · 01/09/2018 14:45

She’s not asking for help - quite the opposite.

It’s clean.

The children are well cared for.

She has a DH, another non hoarding adult, living there.

Why exactly do you think you need to do anything?

LIZS · 01/09/2018 14:49

I'm not sure what the issue is. Maybe she has more stuff than you would in a house that size but if the dc are being prioritised, well, clean and fed do you really need to do anything?

siblingofahoarder · 01/09/2018 15:22

I personally don't think it's a particularly significant safeguarding issue (because as you say, otherwise their needs are being met), but I think SS would. If they got involved no doubt they'd take a pressuring attitude to it (i.e. just force her to get rid of the stuff asap) and that would be unhelpful for various reasons. So I don't want her living in fear of them finding out, and am wondering if there is anything I can do/say to help before it gets to that stage, which it could if someone else reports it.

The main practical issue is the fire risk. Partly because there is more stuff to burn, so it would go up faster, and partly because it would be more difficult to get out of the house because of the things everywhere. Yes it's unlikely their house will set on fire in the first place, but if it does, it's concerning that a third of people who die in house fires are hoarders.

It is definitely out of the normal range of how much stuff people have (not just more than I personally would). She's acknowledged it's an issue herself, but doesn't want to discuss it. Adult children of hoarders may end up with issues because of it (though not all of them do). And it stops us visiting (though they come here).

Plus regardless of the level of effect the stuff itself has on the family, it is generally indicative of an underlying mental health issue.

OP posts:
LIZS · 01/09/2018 15:29

You are overthinking it. Unlikely ss would be interested.

siblingofahoarder · 01/09/2018 15:51

Well all the councils' policies I've seen online disagree; they consider it a form of neglect. Though obviously they have limited resources, and may choose to focus them on people who are actively abusing their children instead.

I do think living in a larger house could help in some ways, since they are on the verge of being overcrowded anyway. At least then they would have space for the things they do reasonably need, and maybe the excess could be confined to one room, to be dealt with slowly. But I can understand her partner's reluctance to move, in case it doesn't work out that way (which is pretty likely, as hoarders tend to end up filling whatever space they have).

OP posts:
AttilaTheMeerkat · 01/09/2018 16:38

Your sister will simply continue to hoard in a new property as well.

I would seek support for your own self and in this respect I would look at these websites.

hoardinguk.org/

www.helpforhoarders.co.uk/ Their family and friends section would be particularly helpful to you.

Will her H be willing to seek support for his own self as well?. His needs are important as well because he lives too with a hoarder.
Her hoarding will affect her children markedly even if the effects are not apparent now.

Social Services would be worth contacting as they do work with hoarders.

Diamondangel8 · 01/09/2018 17:03

Keep your nose out and stop interfering. Her kids are fine as you said. Who do you think you are? I'm appalled at your thread. You seriously need to get a life if all you are worrying about is someone's house being a bit small and cluttered. Seriously you need to mind your own business. Appalling!!!!

siblingofahoarder · 01/09/2018 17:59

Thanks @AttilaTheMeerkat I've sent her partner the link.

I'd be concerned that SS wouldn't follow best practice WRT hoarding though, as they don't in so many other ways, and that could make things worse. And as hoarders go, she's near the lower end of the scale in terms of severity. But since their front door opens directly into the living room, and the kitchen is open-plan to that, anyone calling at the door can see the whole of the downstairs of the house, so it's always possible a delivery worker might contact someone about it.

@Diamondangel8 her children seem fine now, but as Attila said, effects may take time to show up. And her house is not just "a bit cluttered".

I think I'm someone who wants to know how best to support her sister, who is clearly distressed by the situation, and the rest of her family, who are also negatively affected to some extent.

OP posts:
LIZS · 01/09/2018 18:03

Why on earth would a delivery driver be so concerned? Is the house cleaned, maintained?

siblingofahoarder · 01/09/2018 18:41

Well it's as clean as it can be, with stuff everywhere. They don't have ants or mice. But there must be some level of dirt building up amongst the piles, because it's not practical to clean it all. I said the urgent/important stuff gets maintained (e.g. broken shower, though that took a while), but not the more minor aspects (e.g. decorating).

They also have stuff in a garage and shed in the garden. Some of that is her partner's DVDs, which I assume are only out there as other stuff is filling up the logical places they would otherwise go inside. And I think a storage unit as well (which is obviously costing them money).

She also seems to keep all drawings the children have done, and cards people have sent them (the living room walls are covered in things from the last 9 years) but I don't know how much of that is her, and how much is the children not wanting to get rid of them (and if the latter, whether that's because they are picking up her habits). Maybe they initially object, which feeds into her justification for not disposing of them. Whereas most parents would get rid of at least some of them anyway.

And even without the concern of moving the issue to a bigger house, they couldn't sell this one in its current state (at least for its full value). So it's stopping them having a suitable home long-term.

OP posts:
NotTheFordType · 01/09/2018 18:48

I feel sorry for her kids, but SS are not going to take any action I'm afraid.

They can't afford to take action on children who are being emotionally abused. If a child is fed, clothed and goes to school then it's job done.

(Not knocking SW - many do a fantastic job. But the funding is just not there.)

siblingofahoarder · 01/09/2018 18:59

Social services in my area do put resources into emotional abuse and neglect. Though she is in a different council area, and I don't know their priorities.

I don't really want them to take action anyway, since it would likely be the wrong kind of action, which could be more harmful overall.

OP posts:
meowimacat · 01/09/2018 22:52

I don't really have much help, my mother is a hoarder and even now she owns a big 5 bedroom house in London and none of her children and grandchildren can stay because every room is full. It's so sad. I moved in with her for a while to try and help but it just didn't work. Personally I had to just let her continue to live the way she is. I know how hard that is to do, but sometimes when you've exhausted all options what else can you do?

I also recently noticed that everything was getting on top of me in my own house. I felt like I was getting to be like my mum, mainly as I don't have much time to tidy as a single working parent. So I joined this site www.flylady.net and it's massively helped me with cleaning and not feeling overwhelmed by it all. They send you daily emails with tips on how to clean and focus on certain areas. May be worth getting her to sign up? - Although may just add to her email list. But even if she'd be willing to read into it, that would be good.

What I will say is, you can't change people or force people to do anything. Sometimes the only thing you can do is say your piece and let them decide whether they want to do anything or not.

HMC2000 · 01/09/2018 23:02

My dad is a hoarder, and I don't think people talking about 'clutter' have any idea what it's really like. I'm afraid I don't have any help to offer - I know only too well the brick wall you come up against if you try to help /offer solutions - but I'm sending some solidarity. I suspect social services will shortly be involved with my dad, and that can only be a good thing.

Maelstrop · 01/09/2018 23:39

So the kids can’t have mates round? Such a shame. She needs counselling. Have you seen the American programmes about hoarding? Quite insightful to watch a couple.

Bunbunbunny · 02/09/2018 01:32

My mother was a hoarder and you are right to be concerned about the children. It is likely to get worse & it’s awful never being able to have friends round. My df & I used to eat all our meals sitting on a stool in the kitchen as there was no room in our dining room or sitting room. It was depressing living in that state and it grinds you down. I can’t visit my parents as there is no where to sit my nan used to wait outside to collect me as there was nowhere to sit & as a child I felt shame. I feel sadness thinking about our old house as it was never a home it was a dumping ground of mothers crap. DF tried but was talking to a brick wall, I am nc with my mother as she had other issues but I refuse to allow my house be the same.

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