Dealing with your narc mother with your children

[mintich]

Following on from the narc mother thread, I wondered how people cope who are now mothers themselves.
I went for lunch with my parents and my niece yesterday and my mum was her usual argumentative attention seeking self.
My niece is 12 and seems completely desensitised to how she is. She has had abuse hurled at her through the years for no reason.
I was looking at my 15 month old (who she ignored the whole time) and thought I don't want her to go through all this.
At the same time I would find it hard to go NC (as many daughters of narcissists do)
So how do you protect them?

It is not possible to have a relationship with someone as disordered of thinking as your mother is. By meeting her at all, all of you are all giving her narcissistic supply.

Feel most sorry for your scapegoated niece; who has thrown abuse at her all these years (presumably this is your mother?) and where are her own parents in all this here?. This will certainly affect her as an adult too and blight her life and relationships.

BTW you do not mention your dad here; is he still in your life?.

Narcissistic grandparents are deplorably bad as grandparents and can undervalue or overvalue the relationship with the grandchild. Your mother ignored your child, your child as well needs safe and emotionally healthy roles models to be around and clearly your mother is neither.

Keep your child and yourself well away from your mother. That is your only option for you going forward, do not keep exposing yourselves to this toxic woman. Address your own FOG through counselling and read websites like Reddit and Daughters of Narcissistic Mothers. You have been and are still being trained here to serve your mother at your (and now your child's) overall expense.

My dad is around. He was at the lunch too.
He dotes on both granddaughters. My mum is quite jealous of their relationships yet makes no effort to have one herself. Weirdly if she's on the phone to me ( they live two hours away) she'll talk about how much she lives my daughter but when it comes to face to face effort, there is none. I'm pregnant with my second and finding my mother so stressful.
I could write paragraphs on how she acts but it's classic narc behaviour.
So yesterday when my dad was taking to my daughter, she kept interjecting with "you are scaring her" he wasn't, and "She has no idea who you are" she does.
Then my mum was holding my daughter's toy and my dad said "i think she wants her toy back" she starts screaming about how he's making a fool of her and storms out of the pub. She sits outside at the window behind us so that we would notice her. We carried on eating then she made my dad and niece leave because she wamted to go home.
You can see how pathetic she is. I think she was annoyed as my dad and niece were paying attention to my daughter and not her. She is like this at every visit.
I cried on the way home thinking how hurt my daughter would feel if she realised that she was ignored by her own grandmother.
My dad stands up to her sometimes but most of the time just puts up with her for an easy life. I always wonder if she was always like this, e.g. when they first met

My niece lives up north and is down for a visit. Her parents are divorced, my brothers wife put up with a lot from my mum. My brother is joining them tomorrow. I find it hard to discuss with my brother as any time I have, he has ultimately told her her what I have said, even if he has said he wouldn't. I sometimes think he has narc tendencies that he has got from our mother.

I didn't see any way forward other than to go NC. I couldn't watch my babies go through the same as I did and I never wanted them to feel the same way. Fortunately my parents are divorced and have been for a very long time so it was easier because I still have a relationship with my father. My siblings are also NC with our mother. It's been almost 4 years now and it's made me a better mother and my children are happy.

mintich

First of all congratulations to you on your pregnancy.

Your dad here cannot entirely be left off the hook because he is really her enabler and hatchet man. Women like your mother always but always need a willing enabler to help them and he fits the bill. He is truly a weak man who acts out of self preservation and want of a quiet life. He gets what he wants out of this relationship with his wife too. He has also failed you as a parent because he has and still fails to protect you and now his grandchildren from the excesses of his wife's behaviours. He should hang his head in shame. She was likely the same when they first met too. Such people do not change and your dad's roles in this dysfunctional dynamic have not changed.

She is not simply just pathetic either, she is abusive. Would you have tolerated any of this from a friend, no you would not. Why are you tolerating this at all from your mother and being part of her audience?. You've been trained to serve her and by meeting her at all with your child in tow, you're still serving her black hole of endless need.

What are your boundaries like with regards to your mother anyway, these need urgent raising. That may be hard for you to achieve because she has basically seen you as an extension of her. Your child too is narc supply and will be continued to be used as such. She will also emotionally harm your as yet unborn child by making that child either a scapegoat or her golden child. She will affect their relationship between them as siblings.

Being NC with both your brother and your parents is a way forward, a hard way yes but one that is necessary for your own sanity and your kids. They were not good parents to you when growing up, whatever made you think that either would be at all good grandparent figures now?. Both are clearly not.

I would think your assessment of your brother is sadly correct; you seem to be the scapegoat here with regards to your mother. Again your dad has failed to protect you and your brother for that matter from her excesses of behaviours.

My mother would use my children to hurt me. Made it pretty easy to go nc.

You don't expose them to her. You need to protect them.

I don't know why I don't want to go no contact, I'm not entirely sure she'd notice! It's always me who calls etc.
She didn't cone to my daughter's christening, and now keeps threatening not to come to my wedding.
I don't want her to anyway and when I said she doesn't have to come, she got annoyed saying I should be trying to convince her!
She will only cause trouble, drink excessively, get argumentative etc and I don't want the stress.
She told me I should cancel my wedding as I will have hardly any family there. (She doesn't speak to any of her siblings and has caused fall outs with my dad's family.) It hasn't occurred to her that I have friends!
I have had no birthday parties, missed my graduations, didn't have a baby shower that my MIL tried to organise .....for once I'm having a celebration for myself

I suppose I worry about my dad/niece if I go NC as they will take brunt of it .
The things is most of the time on the phone, she is nice. By in person she is horrible and every time I see her I come away angry and upset.
Now I have my own happy family, the only thing that causes me upset is her

I have also thought about therapy for myself. When I had anxiety, I looked into it and my mother said " don't go to therapy, they'll just try and blame me, they always blame the parents"
Funnily enough my anxiety stopped when I moved two hours away! It only reappears on visits

Re your dad and niece baring the brunt if you go no contact that is part of your overall conditioning as well as you still being mired in your own FOG (fear, obligation and guilt). You get nothing positive out of being in contact with her; you come away both upset and angry every time. Would you have tolerated this from a friend, no. Your mother is no different.

Out of those two you cite, I feel most sorry for your niece but her parents are responsible for her welfare ultimately; poor child sounds utterly traumatised. Do not let that same fate befall your children.

I do not feel sorry for your dad because he is really your mother's enabler and hatchet man here. He is just as bad as she is; he's acted like this out of self preservation and want of a quiet life.

Perhaps you keep in contact because you still want her approval on some level. This however, she will never give you.

You will ultimately have to grieve for the relationship you should have had rather than the one you actually got.

A resounding yes re therapy and do not under any circumstances tell your mother about any aspect of your life now; at the very least look at the grey rock technique and be as boring as possible to her. Part of your training here re your mother was telling her about this in the first place. She really does see you as an extension of her and your boundaries re her are practically non existent.

Re therapy treat it like a job interview and interview such therapists at length before committing. You need to find someone who fits in with your approach as well as someone highly versed in the dysfunctional ways of narcissistic family structures.

I was encouraged to go LC/NC and it took several trials to build up to where we are now (8 months NC). It's been the best thing for reducing stress! She made my life a misery when I was pregnant / DS was small. I saw him retreat away from her and how she forced him to have cuddles. She couldn't stand DS enjoying time with his grandpa (my step dad) so always turned the spotlight back to herself in any dramatic way possible. I decided at Christmas when she was telling me how abnormal I was and that I probably didn't need or want gifts anyway that that was it. I wouldn't let my DS be treated this way and I wouldn't let him see his mother being treated this way. Just unacceptable. He missed his grandpa for a little while but never grandma and sadly he can't have one without the other. Sometimes I feel guilty but otherwise it feels great to not be forced into seeing someone who speaks to me like dirt.

Good luck. I hope you can go NC xx

I suppose I'm some level I'm still looking for approval or hoping she'll turn into a "normal" mum.
I also worry that she'll try and stop my dad seeing me.
If you have gone NC, has that been with both parents?

I still speak to and see my Dad but they are divorced so a different scenario.

Go no contact now before she starts treating your dd the same way she treats you. I have learned this through her and my dad playing their abusive games with my dcs. It is the only way. I've been no contact for five years. It's hard but the only way to protect your dd.

Read Will I Ever Be Good Enough? By Karyl McBride.

mintich

re your comment:-
I suppose I'm some level I'm still looking for approval or hoping she'll turn into a "normal" mum.

Yes that is what you are doing but you know that is not ever going to happen. This is who she is and its not your fault she is the ways she is.

"I also worry that she'll try and stop my dad seeing me".

Would that in all honesty be a huge loss here?. What has he done here to help you?. He has done his bit here in the past to scapegoat you as well.

Your children as well need emotionally healthy role models; neither of your parents fits that bill. Your dad may never escape her influence. He does get what he wants out of their relationship and stays for his own reasons.

In a straight fight I feel that your dad would choose his wife over you. Your dad is also as culpable as your mother is; he is her willing enabler and hatchet man here. He has thrown you and your sibling under the bus many times now to protect his own self and would likely say to you something along the lines of, "don't criticise the wife I have chosen".

Did you actually announce you were going no contact or just drift away?

The trouble with going nc is the risk of nc with your dad too, particularly as he is her enabler and wants a quiet life. Mine is the same, least said, soonest mended. If I go nc with my not so dm, I get radio silence from my dad too. It’s really bloody frustrating and it makes me very angry that he can’t separate himself enough or stand up to her and tell her what a fucking pita she is.

I don’t think you need to announce you’re going nc: As she never phones you, just don’t phone her.

Hiya chuck, totally feel for you, I keep thinking I've got there only to get so angry about the latest text I get from my Mum, and like you am just about to seek counselling to help me manage my (non existent) relationship with her. I'm 42 so nope, don't think it gets any better they are not going to change sorry to say. My sister and I went round to have it all out with both parents and it went well (we didn't plan this it was after a nasty text dad sent about how badly we treated mum, disrespect etc. Wtf!?) initially we agreed lots of parameters etc Didn't change a thing! Got a text just last night saying Am I available tommorow? Wtf! And what for?! Which I'm struggling to ignore as it's typical of the attention seeking behaviour (she obviously been on my FB) seeing I'm havin a life 😉
Anyhow before I make it all about me 😉 just know that your not alone, we are all going thro the same, this is such a good supportive thread x

Meant to add your situation does sound extreme and I would definately go NC for the sake of your children x

If you're the one who always contacts her, then I think I'd try and experiment by NOT contacting her and see if she ever phones you back.
If she doesn't, then you've achieved it with very little effort and she clearly doesn't give a flying fuck about you or your DC.

If she does contact you, however, you're likely to cop an earful in regards to why you haven't been in contact with her etc. - but you only have to listen to that shit once and then never phone her again afterwads.

It's not your responsibility to "bear the brunt" to protect other members of your family. The rest of your family are adults, capable of making their own decisions, not hostages. You are not responsible for anyone but your little family unit.

What really helped me set boundaries with my narc DM was talking through with DH how I wanted DS's childhood to be (nothing like my own)!. Really talking about our hopes and ideals for bringing up DS helped me get very clear on what I would and would not tolerate from DM. It also means we have a mostly united front on dealing with her, whereas before she was a huge source of conflict in our relationship.

The best way I can explain how to set boundaries with a narc is like training a dog. The punishment has to happen instantly the boundary transgression is made. So any dig or sarky comment no matter how small, I say "pardon? What do you mean? Did you just tell me how to butter toast? I'm 32 years old, stop telling me how to butter toast." And then change the subject. It is scary at first but you will start to enjoy standing up to her and feel relieved!

Ultimately a narc uses the rules of social convention to get what they want. DM knows you won't want to make a scene. So she is in control because she will stop at nothing to get what she wants, no matter how crazy she looks doing it. Same with insults and sarky comments. She knows you will try to be polite and avoid the conflict.

You can learn to recognise when you are letting her get away with behaviour that you would not tolerate from any other human being on the face of the earth. You can learn how to calmly enforce a boundary in the moment she tries to transgress. You just must be willing to get very real with yourself and abandon any thoughts of reconciliation. You didn't break her, you cannot fix her. Your priority has to be yourself, your DH and your DC.

Agree that just not contacting her is the best way to go nc.

I would do it gradually.

Also never ever tell the narc this is what you're doing. For a number of reasons. Information is power. It is also ammunition for character assassination.