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Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

UNMARRIED -NO RIGHTS!!!

431 replies

Oncewasneedy · 03/08/2018 02:19

Just wondering what MN readers would think about a campaign for the rights of unmarried women/mums!! (Long one-sorry)
I am so tired of hearing about women on here getting the crap end of the stick purely because they weren't married! And also because they don't understand that being unmarried leaves you with no rights over anything!
I was one of those women!
I met my partner when I was 16 and he was 30. It was all good for a long time and when he proposed to me I didn't even look back! The very next day he said he wanted a long engagement! I was not happy about this!! But when I also began to have my own thoughts about things he didn't like it!
However in the time we were together we had 4 children! I would have had more as he wanted but his behaviour got more unforgivable with each birth! (Think narcissistic and your there)
We also went through many problems with losing parents to our family business going to pot! We fought hard to get our livelihood back and thank god we did it!
But despite everything it wasn't enough! I could go on and on about how selfish he was and how I thought I would die of sadness and loneliness being with him but it doesn't serve anyone! I begged him to try but in the end I couldn't take anymore and I left!
After 20 years together I had to leave!
I had to leave the home I had raised my children in, where they took their first steps, where I bathed them and had their birthday parties and Christmas!
I had to leave because I had no rights to the home- all in his name!
After 20 years- I meant no more to him than hired help!
Thank god I took a part time job when the youngest started school otherwise I would have been clueless!
Clearly this is a rant and a half but do other married women think that unmarried women should get legal protection in some form! I know that some women will flame me for being so naive and an idiot but when you meet someone at the age of 16 it twists your mind somewhat!
Im still trying to get my head around it all! So I'm sorry if I still sound angry!!!

OP posts:
Xenia · 03/08/2018 08:05

I would like strong lobbying not to change teh law. Plenty of women have assets to protect for their children against live in lovers. Many of us pay out to men in divorce as it is if we are married. The last thing we want is the important difference between cohabitation and marriage to go.

I would lobby however to ensure all men and women know it rarely makes sense to give up work and you do so at your peril and thus if a man is insisting you do so and you are not married say hang on sunny Jim you can do the cleaning and I will work full time - here's the baby and the scrubbing brush - get on with it or else find a good nursery for our child.

AjasLipstick · 03/08/2018 08:05

there should be a clear distinction between just living with somebody and actually entering into the legal agreement of marriage

There already is. Namely that women "just living with someone' have no rights and women who are married do have rights.

And that's wrong.

It's wrong because one party can simply refuse to marry.

All the power lies with one person.

Chocolaterainbows · 03/08/2018 08:05

I personally think that women need to think more with their head and less with their heart.

Women need to concentrate on their education and then their careers so they can become financially secure themselves.
So much independence and security is given up when women have children and very little thought given to the implications.

CesiraAndEnrico · 03/08/2018 08:10

Cesira living together is a choice. Having a child is a choice. If you don’t want the potential consequences, don’t do it

Yes. You are making the choice the live together as opposed to choosing to enter into a contract.

If we have arrived at the point where so many do not realise that living together with a child in common does not create a legal commitment it is also possible for a situation to arise where people do not realise that if they do not leave within a cut off point they are entering into a legal contract.

Those that do realise it might create a phenomenon of leaving and returning (with the resultant instability for their partner/kids) to avoid a continuous period of co-habitation changing their commitment status.

Plus a potentially not inconsiderable number of non-primary caregivers who will walk out the day before they become liable for more than they are willing to give. That has the capacity to increase the number of partners a serial monogamist clocks up and creates children, then leaves with over their lifetime.

Additionally I know lots of people who have lived together for years, whose children are now grown, who continue to live together, love each other and continue to provide the stability their children have long enjoyed via their solid union. I see no reason to arm twist those people into a legally binding contract they actively do not want, or force them to live apart in order to avoid it. We have moved on from shotgun weddings being foistered on people, I see no benefit to returning to something not so dissimilar in the form of contracts that are not actively sought, or desired by the participants.

Women in particular can wind up trapped in a shared home, via economic disadvantage and/or abusive behaviours. I cannot support a policy that would have them sleepwalking into a legal contract with somebody that they do not actively choose to enter into a legal commitment with, but instead passively slide into because they are hamstrung, or too disoriented/disadvantaged to avoid.

I agree with you that what has become socially acceptable has effectively stripped by the back door the primary caregiver (of any shared children) of protections they could previously rely on. That should be tackled head on. It is perfectly possible to have good and valid reasons for being opposed to marriage/civil union. It is also perfectly possible for people to espouse those same reasons simply because they wish to camouflage their (or their partner's) antipathy for committing to their current partner, regardless of what that means for the other person in the relationship.

Which is why I have agreed with the OP's point about raising awareness of the different legal status of living together v marriage for the last 15 years. But I don't think we can effect real change by tinkering with the law, which is unlikely to resolve the issue it sets out to resolve, and has the potential for a whole host of unwanted, unintended consequences.

What would be more effective, and fairer to those who have ethical/philosophical objections to marriage/civil partnership, would be to achieve real clarity in the public's mind as to what the legal ramifications are of having children outside of making a freely chosen, active commitment to each other.

And rendering it at least as socially acceptable ("cool" if you like) to insist on commitment before children, as it is to have children first and postpone legal commitment between the parents.

I think the campaign will have to be a lot more high profile, and far better funded than any of the efforts that I have seen thus far.

FancyADoughnut · 03/08/2018 08:10

I am not sure I get the 'all power lies with one person'.

Of course two people have to agree to get married as it's an important legal process. But equally two people have to agree to live together and stay together.

Of course it might not be 'easy' to walk away but that is the same for getting divorced or splitting assets if not married but house is in the both names. Just because it might be hard personally to do doesn't make it right to force the same legal protection as marriage passively onto everyone living together.

BoxsetsAndPopcorn · 03/08/2018 08:12

I have spent 18 years looking after our children! Cooking ,cleaning,washing, Organized play dates!! Clearly I loved all those jobs! It would be nice if just once my hard work got recognised

It's not exactly hard work is it and surely the recognition comes in the fact of being a good parent. You do realise that people can both parent and work, it's not that hard.

You made some poor choices but you made them as an adult and now have to live with them.

Woman aren't helpless, many make sensible choices and are perfectly fine. The law shouldn't change to protect those that don't.

Xenia · 03/08/2018 08:12

I certanily support raising awareness. A lot of higher earners will not marry someone because they think it may not last and don't love them enough. The lower earner decides to chance it by moving in and then it goes wrong. The answer is don't move in without that ring on your finger and if she or he loves you enough they will marry you. If they don't then find someone who does.

QueenDoria · 03/08/2018 08:15

We've got to raise our daughters to choose NOT to have children with a man who (a) won't marry them (b) thinks marriage is just a piece of paper (c) does not want the mother if his children to be respected and recognised by law.
And ditto for ours sons...

Singlenotsingle · 03/08/2018 08:15

I think that civil partnership is being extended to straight couples as well as gay couples. That may partly solve the problem for couples who don't want to take the final step.

Chocolaterainbows · 03/08/2018 08:16

QueenDoria

Absolutely agree Smile

PolkerrisBeach · 03/08/2018 08:18

If you want the rights, get married. I don't mean "have a wedding", just a simple legal service in a registry office if you choose.

MarshaBradyo · 03/08/2018 08:19

No the law shouldn’t be changed wrt to co-habitation but fine to have civil partnership extended

flowery · 03/08/2018 08:22

I have no intention of splitting up with DH but if that happened, I would not want to get married again. If I chose to enter into a long term relationship with someone else I would want to be able to do so fully in the knowledge that either of us could walk away at any point and our respective assets would be protected, in my case for my DC, and presumably there would be a reasonable chance that my hypothetical new man might have DC as well and therefore would want protection for them.

I wouldn’t want to be forced into a legal contract I haven’t actively decided to enter into.

EnthusiasmWellAndTrulyCurbed · 03/08/2018 08:24

It's so unrealistic to just say 'don't have kids/give up your career'
Why? What is unrealistic about it? Having children is, for the most part, a choice. Contraception, used correctly, is incredibly effective. Genuine failure is NOT common.
Not a smart move to have children without any protections in place. I don't think it has to be marriage but if people put more thought into who they have children with and WHEN they have children and WHY they are having children (newsflash! it's not going to make him marry you/stay home/help out/stop drinking and whatever other thing you think it will) then perhaps these issues wouldn't be so prevalent.

The real issue here is the fact that a 30yr old man preyed on a 16 yr old. Where were your parents OP? Sad

MotherofPearl · 03/08/2018 08:24

I'm sorry about what happened to you OP, and I take your point, but I don't agree that the law needs changing - though perhaps there does need to be greater awareness of its implications.

Having said that, I do think there are other ways of protecting yourself if circumstances permit - DP and I have 3 DC together and are not married, but I still work FT and property etc is in both our names. I feel that offers me some protection and independence.

CoteDAzur · 03/08/2018 08:26

"For those saying 'get married' how do you do that if your partner won't?"

Don't have children until you do.

I wouldn't have a child with someone who has not committed to staying with me for the long term. It might end in divorce but at least both parties have committed to each other. Then you think about a baby.

Gaspodethetalkingdog · 03/08/2018 08:28

Yes it is fine to have children and not be married, if the woman has a well paid job she does not give up and the couple own their property jointly.

But the people who come on her and complain about no ‘rights’ are not in that category

SheSparkles · 03/08/2018 08:30

Marriage is worth it if even just for there being no inheritance tax between spouses!

museumum · 03/08/2018 08:31

I think we need education about this an an attitudinal change to weddings making the quick registry office version more socially acceptable (with big party after or not depending on choice).

BUT I do not support giving legal right to cohabitees. When I cohabited it was because I wasn’t sure (yet) and did not want to be legally and financially joined.

Leaflets to all who have a child via the name registration process would be good. And leaflets to all unmarried house purchasers.

CanineEnigma · 03/08/2018 08:36

It's wrong because one party can simply refuse to marry.

All the power lies with one person.

And the other person, aware of what the lack of marriage means to them, can leave if they want to. No one should be held hostage in personal relationships.

TypicallyNorthern · 03/08/2018 08:39

I can't believe how unsupportive some of the women on here are. I know a couple of vulnerable women who have been left out in the cold with their DC after being with their partner and having DC. One has a very rich partner and DC who is now on her own living in rented accommodation and is broke. He owes her nothing, throws her a few fish and she cannot even move on to a new relationship as she thinks he will cut off any help. My own nephew has 2 DC with someone who is desperate to get married to him, loves him to bits and he wont do it as it is "just a piece of paper".

I will tell my sons that this actually works both ways. If they don't get married then the woman holds all the cards with the DC and they wont see them if they split up.

I agree that marriage should hold more weight in terms of rights. However, each partnership with DC should be given individual thought WRT how long they have been together and how many DC they have and a sum should be allocated by the judge.

I am married and a SAHM. I know people don't like that on here but if we split he owes me a lot of money and I would get at least half of "our" assets, if not more as I am pretty sure I would get the DC.

CherryPavlova · 03/08/2018 08:40

I’m a firm believer that children are best raised in secure married families. I think the country should encourage this (whilst accepting it doesn’t always happen) and support marriage as a benefit to families.

I think people are careless in their lack of consideration of the consequences of flings, short term relationships and unplanned pregnancies. I think this is detrimental to society and costs the children and often the woman dearly. There are those who continue to have numerous children without the means to raise them and who rely on benefits to survive. There are, of course, couples who both work who need benefits to support them but there are also an awful lot of inconsequential people who don’t seem to understand pregnancy is a known complication of sex.

If you allow unmarried people the same rights, how long do they have to be together before you split the assets?

Tawdrylocalbrouhaha · 03/08/2018 08:43

I think the law should stay as it is. And I say that as a single mother, but one who owns her own house, works, invests etc. If I meet someone tomorrow I have no intention of risking half of my meagre assets by getting married! The idea that anyone could be given rights without the benefit of marriage is outrageous to me.

Making sure everyone is aware of the law as it stands is a great idea of course.

batshitbetty · 03/08/2018 08:44

I think more should be done to educate people, so they aren't so naive to believe certain ridiculous notions such as 'he has to let me have the house until the kids are 18 even though my name isn't on the deeds, I didn't pay the mortgage, and I have no claim to this property whatsoever'

But ultimately people do need to take some responsibility for themselves, and it's not difficult to find out the implications of these things, a quick google and you are done - the problem is people bury their head in the sand, listen to uninformed friends or just don't bother looking.

As for protections, no I don't think more should be done - that's what marriage is for, two people making a choice to commit to each other for life, and if someone refuses to get married there are other choices the other person can make.

Don't forget that it wouldn't just be protection for women, it would have to work all ways and would have a massive impact on society as a whole eg I've been with my DP for 5 years but we aren't married, I earn 5x his salary, would I have let him move in if he suddenly became entitled to my house or my pension by doing so? No! So he would have to live somewhere else putting more strain on the already stretched housing market. A simple example but illustrates my point, also things are currently fine as we are not married I don't see why I should have to remain single to protect the assets I have built up myself, because some people are stupid naive and don't protect themselves (or even worse blindly assume that someone else will always look out for their best interests, even though they don't do it themselves)

QueenoftheNights · 03/08/2018 08:47

No one is being smug and calling people bitches is not exactly in good taste is it ? [reported that, by the way.] Either argue the point in a civil way PeakPants and LyingWitch or go away.

No one is being 'smug'. The OPs thread- with numerous exclamation marks after every sentence, is meant to be dramatic and inflammatory.
Yes, 40% of marriages break down but if there are children involved the law gives some protection to the lower-income parent.

She got herself into a mess and it's hard to believe someone nr forty has just woken up to the fact that living together confers no rights in terms of income or assets. It was her choice to live that way and to have four children.

There is no defence in this case. The OP simply avoided engaging her brain and facing up to what could happen.

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