In shock - I’ve just been sacked

[Zofloramummy]

I’m a single mum with a mortgage. I’ve worked in the NHS for 21 years. I’ve had a really shitty few years, left an abusive relationship, struggles with my mental health and had an accident resulting in several fractures.

I have had three absences since my return from long term sickness (flu, D&V, and a horrendous reaction to antibiotics).
I went to the third formal sickness interview today and I’ve had my contract terminated.

I’m in shock I think. They’ve applied the policy to the letter so I doubt there are grounds for appeal. After years of service and being burnt out by the demands of the job I’ve been sacked.

Not sure why I’m posting I think I just need to hear some positive stories of people who have come out of the other side of this. I don’t think I want to work in the NHS any longer. I’m trying to see this as an opportunity. But I’m scared too. Not sure if relationships is the right place to post, but any advice would be great.

So sorry to hear this. I feel for you. I got made redundant once, years ago just before Christmas. However, by 31st Jan I had found another job. I am a solicitor. I applied for jobs outside the law but also just set to set to and contacted all the local firms. It so happened one firm badly needed a solicitor but just hadn't got round to advertising. I would say just explore every avenue you can think of and don't wait for the ads to come out or for the opportunities to come to you. You go to them. Wish you all the best.

That's awful. You were clearly unable to work on all occasions. No patient would want to be treated by someone with any of the above. Apart from the risk of infection, you would not be able to perform your role properly .

I know, not sure what I was meant to do. Risk infecting patients who are often immunocompromised? However it’s the past and can’t be undone.

I am writing a grievance letter today regarding the early termination fee for the lease car coming from my final salary - which is a direct contradiction of their own policy. Hopefully I can get the decision overturned if they realise I will be taking it further.

The current sickness policy is quite a blunt tool which we know doesn’t work to reduce sickness absence.

Sickness absence costs the NHS in Wales hundreds of millions of £s a year. It impacts on patient care and service delivery. It’s right that steps are taken to manage that, and to deal with staff whose absence is a problem/doesn’t resolve. I do think the dismissal in your case may have been too harsh an outcome, but doing nothing also isn’t an option.

Titty, I know sickness is a problem, but I've always wondered (living abroad, where the attitude to sickness is very different, but the percentage of lead-swingers, AFAICS, no higher) why the UK attitude is so peculiarly punitive? Where I am, what has been done to the OP would be highly illegal. It is possible to dismiss for persistent sickness, but the bar is very high, the employer has to prove all sorts, and it is never formulated/approached as a disciplinary matter.

OP - the last absence was for a breast cyst. Could you say that dismissal using that time off is sex discrimination as men generally can't get breads cysts?

The policies are currently designed to tackle the small proportion of staff that are fiddling the system. Combination of substantial sick pay (6 months full pay, 6 months half) and managers that don’t apply sanctions are contributing to absence which is unacceptable. Unfortunately the innocent also get caught up in it.

Managing sickness absence isn’t about fault - someone with cancer, for example, can’t be blamed for being off work, but nor can the system sustain them in a role they may not be capable of undertaking. There are other options that should be considered - reducing hours, redeployment etc if appropriate. But sometimes there is no other choice but to dismiss.

OP - the last absence was for a breast cyst. Could you say that dismissal using that time off is sex discrimination as men generally can't get breads cysts?

Not even slightly true.

www.nhs.uk/conditions/breast-cancer-in-men/symptoms/

On the face of it OP has sufficient grounds to appeal already so doesn’t need to throw in ridiculous claims like this. But may be running out of time to get an appeal in.

Hi again @zofloramummy - I did DM you a little while ago but I don't know whether you saw the message.

If you do want to appeal the dismissal in any way, or raise a grievance (which sounds like a good idea given what you're saying about the lease car termination), you need to check any closing dates on the letter. Your former employer won't be flexible about this, so you must get it in on time.

You don't have to give them chapter and verse in this letter, but just say that you want to appeal/raise a grievance and just set out why. All the detail can come later.

As I said previously, I was a senior Unison rep for nearly 20 years, so if you want a hand putting a letter together, drop me a message.

Thank you blueangel I’ve decided not to appeal the termination (after discussion with ACAS). Basically because I don’t want to work there again.
I had a colleague who was dismissed for misconduct. She won her appeal but they made her working conditions so difficult that she left shortly after. I think it is now going to tribunal for constructive dismissal.

I know I’d face the same treatment and I’m putting my own sanity first! I am however going to raise a grievance about the car payment, the contradictory occupational health advice (the report stated they expected attendance to improve), lack of communication, no option for rebanding or redeployment. The basis of this would be loss of future earnings.

I will pm you and send you a draft if you don’t mind? I have three months to lodge a grievance. At the moment I’m busy applying for jobs. It’s a little disheartening that I’ll have to put my ex line manager down as a reference but I think I can request from her that she provides a basic reference only? We didn’t have the easiest working relationship and I never really fitted in with her clique so I am concerned about how she may word her reference.

Thanks, Titty. I suppose I mainly wondered why sickness appears to be a disciplinary issue at so many places when, as you rightly say, it isn't (shouldn't be) about fault. The system I'm used to manages (IMO) to take account of that while also protecting employers' interests. Employees get, statutorily, 6 weeks full pay and then their health insurance (which everyone has to have, income-based and taken straight from gross wage for employees) takes over at I think about 80% up to a year. 6 months' full pay for which the employer is liable (?) does sound a lot.

6 months' full pay for which the employer is liable (?) does sound a lot.

That’s what the NHS in Wales has. England have just reduced theirs.

Titty can I request a basic reference from my last employer? As I said in my previous post I didn’t always have the easiest working relationship with my line manager and I’ve seen her be pretty shitty to other members of staff. Basically I don’t want my chances scuppered at a fresh start in something different.

Also is anyone aware if it is good practice for the same line manager to be the lead in all of the sickness absence procedure? From informal to dismissal?

Your second point is fine. In the NHS they need to have formal dismissal rights. This is generally not below band 6 but could be higher.

On the first, you’d usually get a tombstone reference from HR (dates) and possibly it would be mentioned that it was dismissal but not on professional grounds. If you were going back to nursing your line manager would be asked for a professional reference.

I have had to intervene when a nursing line manager refused to give someone a professional reference. They were at risk of losing their job offer.

I’m not going back into my profession (AHP). I’m looking at other jobs where is can use transferrable skills.

I thought that’s was the case regarding a reference. I’ll need to speak to my line manager I guess and request this. Apparently it’s not uncommon in larger corporations (according to Careers Wales) for a basic reference to be normal practice.

It’s not at all. It’s a bloody nightmare sometimes though. Sometimes previous managers will give a verbal reference if they won’t/can’t write one.

The new pay deals are extrinsicly linked with reducing sickness absence. This will happen more, not less

No wonder the NHS is in such a shit position. Maybe they could use some common sense between those that are off regularly and those with a 21 year service history who have had a bad time.

I do wonder if this is their cack handed way of getting rid of people on higher salaries so they can take on people who don’t have the experience so they can pay less.

Friend was part of a mass redundancy from her 20 years nursing career, about 20 years ago and they were replaced with newly qualified nurses on half the salary. Then there was a huge outcry from the NHS that they had a shortage of nurses

If this is how the NHS is run I doubt it will last

It’s a lot more complicated than that. Not got time to go into it now but will come back later and respond to that.

Poor you. I was with NHS Wales for over 20 years as an AHP, when they wanted me out...I was out. They stuck to the letter, but they were such twats about it. Don't consult with HR, they work for the managers. I'll never work for the NHS again, the managers are too important, clinicians are dispensible once they're on a high salary and over 50 years old. Job centre and Counsellor said they here it ALL the time. I've moved on and am very happy....and you will be too.

Sorry, 'hear' not 'here'

Don't consult with HR, they work for the managers.

That’s unfair. We’re there to ensure the right thing is done. I spend a ridiculous amount of time counselling staff.

You poor thing

ok how did you get on with applying for other jobs? Was it a barrier having had a contract terminated? Did your ex employer provide you with a reference?

It’s also reassuring to hear that you have moved on and are happy. I’m very much trying to view this as a chance to do something different. Funnily enough my mental state is really positive. I have periods of anxiety about the unknown but I also feel a sense of relief. The atmosphere was toxic from senior management, I felt judged and labelled as a ‘problem’. I’m glad to be out tbh.