How easy is it to 'start again' in your 60's? Dm considering leaving Df- very concerned.

[ABottleOfRum]

Hi,

So my parents are both in their 60's. My dad nearing his 70's. They've been together their entire adult lives and have never been in a relationship with anyone else.

Growing up, I felt very safe and secure and never believed they'd divorce. They seemed happy for most of my younger years, but as I reached my late teens-20's, things seemed to change. That or I hadn't noticed any issues before then.

They have no respect for one another, are arguing constantly and to be brutally honest, just don't seem to like each other. The arguing is more niggling, but constant as I say. Although sometimes it is full on arguing. They always put each other down, more out of habit than anything I think.

My dad suffers with depression and was officially diagnosed a few years ago, but I suspect he's always suffered with his MH, which I can relate to. The problem with my df is he is so narrow minded and stuck in his ways. He won't try new things and seems to need routine. He's the kind of person who orders the same meal again and again, visits the same places, stays in the same hotel. He is of the mind of if it aint broke, don't fix it, but it drives my dm insane. Whereas she likes to stick to what she knows, she wants to try new things, explore the world a bit. They're both retired and they can do this, but if my df doesn't want to do it, then that's it. He just says "nah, what's the point?" when something new is suggested.

The more concerning aspect of this, is that when my df has had a few drinks (they both drink reguarly) he has said some unforgivable things to my dm and I mean, unforgivable.

Whereas in some ways, they're as bad as each other with the nit picking and the constant lack of respect, overall I think my df is the one who's being selfish here. He knows my mum isn't happy, but as long as she doesn't leave him, he's 'happy' to just plod along.

They were over recently and my dm got really upset (this happens quite often, but this was different) and pulled me into the bathroom in floods of tears saying that she's so unhappy and if it weren't for my dsis, me and our dc's, she would leave him.

What do I say to that? She deserves more and that's difficult for me to say. I love my df, but he doesn't appreciate her. Not really and I can't see it changing. It does for a week or two and then goes back to normal.

I really do worry about how both of them would cope with being alone at this stage in their lives. Especially my df as he literally can't do anything for himself. My dm does everything for him. She's cooks all the meals, cleans, buys his clothes, packs his suitcase, everything. He's never even bought himself a shirt. He wouldn't even know what size to get. He's that reliant on her and I just can't see how he'd cope without her.

Neither of them have any friends, apart from one couple, which sound like selfish, racist arseholes tbh. My dm doesn't even like them anymore. She's naturally a very bubbly , friendly person and used to have lots of friends, but over the years they've all fizzled out. My df will be happy about this. He has never liked her having a nice time without him. If she went out, he'd be really arsey with her and wouldn't want to hear about it when she got back. He properly sulks. It's like he punishes her for enjoying something without him. It's actually very disturbing and EA, I know.

I don't really know why I'm posting. I suppose I'm just looking for some advice. I don't know how to help or advise.

My df sees the two of them as an unbreakable team, who don't need anyone else, whereas my dm needs other people in her life, other experiences which she's almost not allowed. In a healthy relationship, she'd be talking to her friends about this, but as I said, she doesn't really have any. She only talks to me about things like this, so I feel a lot of pressure to be honest.

What should I do?

Thanks for reading. Apologies for the length.

"They were over recently and my dm got really upset (this happens quite often, but this was different) and pulled me into the bathroom in floods of tears saying that she's so unhappy and if it weren't for my dsis, me and our dc's, she would leave him.

What do I say to that?"

I would have replied that she cannot use any of her relations here as reasons to stay in her marriage. This is not about any of you either, she has stayed and continues to stay with your dad for her own reasons.

I would reestablish higher boundaries with your mother, you cannot and should not be her only outlet here. Why is she only talking to you rather than your sister as well, you cannot and should not be her only willing audience.

Thanks for answering, Atilla.

She does talk to my sister occasionally, but I think she just finds it easier to talk to me. She is always very apologetic afterwards and says she shouldn't have put it on me, but I will always say she can talk to me if she needs to. I always encourage her to join groups, to meet more people, but she never does. She used to have a good friend that she'd meet up with every month or so, but my df would sulk so much, that I think she subconciously let it die out.

Also, I did actually say that she can't stay with him for that reason, but she just said she couldn't do that to us.

Oh my dear, for parts of that post I had the uncomfortable feeling you might be my daughter.

Honestly? With your support and your mum's friendly personality, as long as she has enough money to live on (pension, savings etc.) I think your mum would be happier than she is now.

I don't know about your father though. I assume they would have to sell the family home and find two separate places to live. I think your mum would love the fresh start whereas your dad would find it very hard.

However, once a new routine is in place for your dad, and with your support (popping in from time to time etc, not financial support) I think he would adapt.

I understand your mum's feelings but you are her daughter, not her counsellor and really it would be better if she had someone outside the family to talk all this over with.

In a nutshell, I think your mum would blossom and your dad would adapt. They would both become nicer people and you would feel relieved. It sounds like they bring out the worst in each other these days. It must be horrible to be bickering at each other all the time and horrible for you to witness.

I wonder what changed all those years ago. Maybe there was a betrayal of some sort that you don't know about. There is usually a reason things change, even if it appears small at the time - resentment and hurts grow if not properly dealt with.

Have you spoken to your sister about your mum?.

She is using you people as an excuse to stay which is not a good idea at all. Her relationship is based on a lie and that is a heavy burden for you to carry. It should not be yours to carry either. It may well be that she simply wants to use you as her DD to sound off about him rather than do anything concrete like leaving her marriage. She is choosing for her own reasons to stay within her marriage despite your dad.

It's very hard to be stuck in this kind of marriage....because as your dad becomes less able...more falls to your mum.

Doing do much for someone who irritated and annoys you is soul destroying.

It's best to leave them while they are a little able otherwise you get labelled heartless.

Caregiving to someone you love is tough enough.

If not now, when?
Tell her her decisions are her own, you don't want guilt for her staying, she should do what will make her happy!

Does their home allow them to separate without either moving out? I.e. separate bedrooms/bathrooms and living areas with a shared kitchen? Maybe that could be a possible solution in the short term.

Village, that would be awkward A big part of me thinks that my mum would blossom, but only if the guilt didn't take over, which I think it probably would.

Atilla, yes, quite recently actually. There was a similar episode when I caught my mum crying and I spoke to my dsis about it a few days later and asked how she found them recently. She said "the usual", which means not good basically.

Sandy, I think that's exactly how she feels. I think she's felt like that for years, but maybe as she's getting older feels as though she has less and less time to find happiness.

Fuzzy, I do feel guilty, yes.

Sarah, possibly.

I would genuinely worry about my df doing something to himself. He's always said that he couldn't live without my dm and apparently when she's threatened to leave in the past, has said that he would just kill himself. I know this kind of threat isn't that uncommon, but is usually used just to scare, but I would be really worried he would be capable of this. It's so sad to say, but he get's little pleasure in things anyway and without my dm, I think he'd just think, well what's the point?..

You talk about people in their 60s as though they are practically on their deathbeds, op!

I am in my late 50s and honestly have more energy and - crucially - more confidence than I did 20 - 30 years ago!

Are they physically fit and able? If so, I think your dm would be much happier without your df - she might have another 20 years of this depressing life if she doesn't do something about it now.

I suspect your mother was hoping for positive encouragement from you ...

Naturally, from your point of view people in their 60s must seem too old to lead any sort of independent life! But from what I’ve seen. half the people starting postgraduate degrees, or beginning new creative pursuits, starting businesses, taking up all sorts of challenges - are in their 60s. They’re not sitting at home waiting to die.

Perhaps you could show your mother you have confidence in her ability to start a new life? That’s what I’d want from you if I were her.

And, as pp have said, your father would adapt. He might even surprise you with how well he copes, once he has to.

Cambionome

Excellent!

Why don't you suggest a middle ground to your DM. Encourage her to go out, join groups, travel independently. DF May well kick off and be displeased but it sounds as if he'll prob do nothing to actually leave.

In the meantime your DM will gain independence and a happier more fulfilling life. She may eventually decide to separate or indeed stay together, but either way I'm sure she'll be happier. And this way she can give herself some time and space to make the right decision.

Cambionome, I really don't think I do. I think it's a perfectly logical question, one of which I'm sure plenty of unhappily married women and men at a similar age ask themselves.

My parents aren't fit, no. They are both overweight, drink too much and don't exercise or have any hobbies. Well, any that they pursue. My dm has just given up I think. My df gave up a long time ago.

Given the way you've described your father, why do you feel your mum is obliged to stay with him? He sounds really, really terrible to live with. I know you've said he has MH issues but that doesn't automatically mean your mum has to be responsible for him forever at her own expense. Also, if he's still only in his 60s and doesn't have any undeclared disabilities, I don't see why he can't learn to make himself something to eat and buy his own clothes like most adults do. Again, this is not your mum's God-given task.

I think you should tell your mum she can come and stay with you for a bit if she wants some space. She may well not, as I suspect she'd also be scared at the prospect of actually, really leaving. But then again she might take up the support she is clearly looking for.

anotherfail, I do try. She does sound really up for the idea and often says that she's going to start volunteering or join the WI or take up a class at night school, but nothing ever comes of it. She's turned into quite the procrastinator actually. Obviously there's only so much I can do. You can take a horse to water..... but given I know she's got nobody else, it's difficult for me to just put my hands up and say, 'well I've done all I can', even though that's probably the way it is.

Not the same thing but my mother had dementia and eventually had to go into a care home. My dad had to learn to cook in his early 80s. He used to make his own bread and experiment with recipes using a slow cooker and a halogen oven (he liked gadgets). It is possible. Pretty much all marriages end with one partner dying first so one half having to manage alone is inevitable.

Your dad is probably not happy with the way things are either.

Tbh I think there are loads of marriages out there like this .

Lots of women are widowed in their 60's so there's actually a lot of support (friendship groups/access to counselling etc.) available to newly single older ladies so I wouldn't worry too much about your mums ability to make new friends and forge a new life for herself.
My cousin and her DH had a major falling out just after he retired and they split up for about a month. She moved in with her sister and was heartbroken but making plans to move forwards on her own. Luckily her DH came to his senses and drove to the sisters and begged the cousin to come back home.
It's been 10 years now and they're very much devoted to each other. I think her DH had simply taken her completely for granted but after spending a short time on his own realised he'd cocked up. He does most of the shopping and cooking now and really makes an effort to buy her nice presents for birthdays and Christmas etc.

Sorry for the delay in replying....

Kool, sometimes I think a short, sharp shock would be good for my df. My dm has threatened to leave, but never does, which deep down he'll know. Thinking about it, my ex's dm did this and his df was beyond distraught and stepped up. I still think he was an arsehole tbh, but apparently a much improved one

Thinking about it, my dm has very low standards and doesn't expect much. She often says this, which is clearly a mistake. I remember her saying a couple of months ago that she saw df talking really nicely to this woman- was really charming and funny and her reaction was "if you gave me 10% of that, I'd be happy". I was really shocked and actually, quite annoyed with her. I asked why she would ask for 10%. She should always be treated better than some random woman they met in a hospital, surely!

OP, would it be possible to take your mum away for a few days or a weekend break somewhere without your dad? He would have to fend for himself for that time, and it might make him realise what life would be like without her. That should be an incentive to up his game to try and please her more and make her stay, plus give her a taste for activities away from him. They both seem weighed down with inertia - it might just need a good kick start to get some changes happening.

She sounds quite reliant on the familiarity of him, eg she doesn't want to join clubs etc that would allow her to have a life of her own. This sort of co-dependence is pretty common especially if your mum stayed at home during the child-rearing part of their marriage; she's used to relying on him.

Although their ages are not old by today's standards, it does sound as if both are just waiting for the other to die, and that's no life at all.

Do either you or your siblings have space for her to stay with you whilst she sorts things out? What would her reaction be if you made this suggestion?

Sounds like a typical marriage for people of that generation. My parents and in-laws were the same. You made your bed and you lay in it .

Your mum won't leave because of fear obligation and guilt, because it's her place to look after everyone and put her needs at lowest priority. That's how many women are. The idea of taking her away for a while is a good one so that your df can see how much she does.

Is it too late to start again? No, but it will be hard for both of them, especially df in practical terms but dm in guilt terms. Not your place to offer advice though unless asked, and even then be careful about not telling her what to do.

Could you suggest your mum talks to a counsellor?

How are the finances?