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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Refusing to engage logically in arguments

69 replies

wormbook · 25/06/2018 13:51

There a theme to how my husband behaves when we're trying to resolve something, which is how he acts when I point out something that he can't think of a sensible response to.

Small things like this escalate: yesterday, lots of flies about, so earlier in the day, I'd ask that people keep the kitchen bin closed. After dinner, I was scraping stuff into the bin, when he came into the kitchen with more plates. I finished, stepped back and he stepped forward to do his, while I left the room. 10 mins later I returned to an empty kitchen and an open bin, so next time I saw him I said in a perfectly relaxed voice, "oh, don't forget about shutting the bin - there's raw chicken bits in there, and there are flies about".

Him: "I left it how I found it".

Me: "well yes, but that's because I was using it when you came in. You waited, then I stepped back for you to use it".

Him: "I left it open because I found it open".

Me: "Well yes, I just explained that. It would have been weird for me to close the bin lid when you were standing there so you could re-open it yourself! You commented a couple of hours ago how many flies were about, so we said we'd keep the bin closed".

Him: growls something about how impossible I am and how he can't do anything right and stomps out of room.

I don't understand why he can't just say "oh oops, I forgot", and the moment would pass. He sees me asking him to do things as controlling and critical, although he can't explain why those descriptions don't apply to him when the roles are reversed and it's him doing the asking. If I point out this is a double standard, he'll say/shout, "I don't know, I DON'T KNOW it just feels different when it's you!!"

He will not talk to resolve anything. He shouts, strops, sulks, walks off, makes declarations about my awfulness, uses sarcasm and exaggeration, while I'm just standing there quietly saying, "please, can you lower your voice, think about what we're saying, and talk to me". I really didn't think adults behaved like this until I lived with him.

OP posts:
Laylajaney · 26/06/2018 07:32

I agree they grind you down and turn things into arguements -if you dare to voice an opinion or ask resonable things .

AgentJohnson · 26/06/2018 10:00

This is who he is and this is the price of being in a relationship with him. Only you can decide if it’s worth paying but don’t delude yourself that a better version of him is an epiphany away, it isn’t.

The balls in your court.

Dancingtothemusicoftime · 26/06/2018 10:26

My DSis has a theory that men who respond like this - her H does - are less intelligent and verbally dexterous than their partner, know it and can't deal with it, so resort to illogic and abuse.

Grumpyoldblonde · 26/06/2018 11:16

That certainly sums up my ex Dancing bloody exhausting

thelatestone · 26/06/2018 11:53

My DSis has a theory that men who respond like this - her H does - are less intelligent and verbally dexterous than their partner, know it and can't deal with it, so resort to illogic and abuse.

Hmm, interesting. My husband accuses me of being like a lawyer when I am trying to talk to him. Basically, this seems to be his response when he can't find a rational rejection of what I am saying.

wormbook · 26/06/2018 12:07

It doesn't compensate even slightly for the horrible behaviour, but he is very nice a lot of the time, and we get on very well when it's chat, doing things with DS, lolling around. We would have had a nice basis for a sort of friendship, which he probably why he has several good friends (although he is quite cruel and schadenfreude about them). If I only saw him for a few hours a month, it would be fine.

Yes to being arrogant. Hugely inflated sense of superiority. Absolutely in the right even over provable fact type stuff, with condescending little smiles and derisory tone - I have taken to not arguing my case when I'm sure about something, and saying "let's just wait until we can look it up". When I can demonstrate I am right he either distorts his original position, or issues the most unapologetic apology imaginable. It's almost a catchphrase of his: "I don't see how that's possible", even when the evidence is right in from of him! Incapable of humility or grace.

His is the default correct position. He sees me deviating from that as defiance or 'trying to make him unhappy', rather than having an opinion of my own which is equally valid and might be based on something solid.

He gets cross at things he perceives to be a slight on him. Such as, if I ask his advice or opinion on something (superficial things - colours that go for example) but choose a different course of action, he sees it as an insult.

One of the most maddening things is that mutual decisions become mine should they later not work out or he changes his mind. From the very superficial (like buying bedding), to the significant (moving away from London) - he ignores the the truth of the plans and conversations we've had, and pretends it was all led by me.

OP posts:
wormbook · 26/06/2018 12:25

We should separate, because even if I can tolerate him when he's here, I don't want to provide a negative example of relationships to DS, and I also don't want to rule out the possibility of ever having a meaningful relationship with someone else (and actually having sex - H has never been interested).

It's annoyingly that now I'm older and have been through a bit, and read a bit, I can see those 'red flags' that were there right at the beginning, but I didn't take them seriously. I used to think men only counted as controlling if they succeeded in enforcing their will. Now, I know men are controlling if they even try to.

OP posts:
hellsbellsmelons · 26/06/2018 13:02

OMG - so you put up with all of that for 15 years and don't even get sex.
Sod that for a game of soldiers.
You know it's time now for YOU!!!

RabbitsAreTasty · 26/06/2018 13:07

Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

Youth is wasted on the young is a saying that keeps floating across my mind these days.

If only we could get the body and stamina of a 20-40 year old back from age 60-80. We'd rule the world. And have much better sex.

wormbook · 26/06/2018 13:26

I had pretty much made up my mind a while ago, but when you're in a situation all the time you can wonder if your losing a bit of perspective. It's helpful to get some other opinions confirming that this is not a satisfactory or acceptable way to live.

OP posts:
headache898 · 26/06/2018 14:39

Yes. Exactly this. I used to think men only counted as controlling if they succeeded in enforcing their will. Now, I know men are controlling if they even try to.

All these traits describe my ex perfectly. And I used to struggle not to get subsumed by his controlling.

Hilltoptea · 27/06/2018 06:30

It's not normal. It shouldn't feel like a competition and it shouldn't be exhausting.

There are so many nice people out there who aren't this difficult!

thegreatbeyond · 27/06/2018 08:02

Another in this situation as well. It's depressing.

Ginsodden · 27/06/2018 08:02

Did he have parents who idolised him op? Who told him he could do no wrong? In my experience this can lead to a deep belief that love is conditional on being perfect, along with a nagging internal voice that says ‘you’re rubbish really’. Any perceived criticism leads to a shame reaction of blame, attack, deflect, bourne out of a fear of rejection. They have to try to convince everyone, especially themselves, that they are perfect.....

abbsisspartacus · 27/06/2018 08:07

I left it how I found it sweetie how many years did you spend trying to piss through your zipper without opening it first?

timeisnotaline · 27/06/2018 08:15

How have you lived with this for years without murdering him??!*
Remember you don’t need to have a dickhead agree with you that they are a dickhead, you can recognise what they are and make your own decisions.
*not actually murdering him obvs

wormbook · 27/06/2018 10:53

His mum thinks he can do no wrong; he says it himself, that she'll agree and approve of anything he does. Never required to do anything around the house. She's critical of his brother though. Low affection household: no cuddles.

I have been reading through a pile of notes I made in summer 2016, when I had booked an initial Relate appointment, of things he did and said to me. There are dozens of anecdotes which all revolve around blaming me, often for things I had no role in: my fault he didn't go out for the evening when he had clearly said he didn't feel like it ("you should have been more encouraging") my fault for "storming ahead and booking storage" when all the queries and the reservation had actually been made by him. He accused me of being too dismissive of people; I asked for an example (as I'm not) and he could only cite a school mum I had never actually met or spoken of, as she and I picked up on different days. It's mind boggling stuff.

OP posts:
FinallyHere · 27/06/2018 11:09

mind boggling stuff

quiet handhold for you @wormbook, I am very sorry, there is a lot for you to take in and process.

My own lightbulb moment came when we were driving to meet family. He set off, on a route that I knew included a limited interchange junction (i used it daily in the other direction). He would not believe me, so i started singing 'you can't get onto the Ax at Junction xx in this direction'. My singing isn't great, I know, but he took absolutely no notice til we got to the junction, and sure enough, you can't....

At which point he shouted 'you should have told me'. In his eyes it was clearly my fault, okaaay

RabbitsAreTasty · 27/06/2018 16:47

It's weird when the scales fall from your eyes. You can't unknow it once you've seen it.

When you get over the shock it is incredibly liberating to accept that you aren't mad/bad/sad.

When you get rid of the loon in your life everything will be normal because you really are normal. He's not. He will remain mad/bad/sad and poison those close to him. Hopefully you will create enough distance that it won't affect you.

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