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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Refusing to engage logically in arguments

69 replies

wormbook · 25/06/2018 13:51

There a theme to how my husband behaves when we're trying to resolve something, which is how he acts when I point out something that he can't think of a sensible response to.

Small things like this escalate: yesterday, lots of flies about, so earlier in the day, I'd ask that people keep the kitchen bin closed. After dinner, I was scraping stuff into the bin, when he came into the kitchen with more plates. I finished, stepped back and he stepped forward to do his, while I left the room. 10 mins later I returned to an empty kitchen and an open bin, so next time I saw him I said in a perfectly relaxed voice, "oh, don't forget about shutting the bin - there's raw chicken bits in there, and there are flies about".

Him: "I left it how I found it".

Me: "well yes, but that's because I was using it when you came in. You waited, then I stepped back for you to use it".

Him: "I left it open because I found it open".

Me: "Well yes, I just explained that. It would have been weird for me to close the bin lid when you were standing there so you could re-open it yourself! You commented a couple of hours ago how many flies were about, so we said we'd keep the bin closed".

Him: growls something about how impossible I am and how he can't do anything right and stomps out of room.

I don't understand why he can't just say "oh oops, I forgot", and the moment would pass. He sees me asking him to do things as controlling and critical, although he can't explain why those descriptions don't apply to him when the roles are reversed and it's him doing the asking. If I point out this is a double standard, he'll say/shout, "I don't know, I DON'T KNOW it just feels different when it's you!!"

He will not talk to resolve anything. He shouts, strops, sulks, walks off, makes declarations about my awfulness, uses sarcasm and exaggeration, while I'm just standing there quietly saying, "please, can you lower your voice, think about what we're saying, and talk to me". I really didn't think adults behaved like this until I lived with him.

OP posts:
ChiaraRimini · 25/06/2018 18:54

This sounds like my ex. He would have argued that black was white to avoid being in the wrong. Nothing was ever his fault. He was also lazy and selfish but in his own eyes completely reasonable.
It doesn't get better OP. He's an emotionally stunted manchild. Get out as soon as you can for your own sanity.

Dljlr · 25/06/2018 20:03

The only good thing about this bloke is that he works away from home for half the week.

Grin

No advice op but watching with interest. DP is very similar and it really gets me down.

PoppyField · 25/06/2018 20:04

Gaslighting.

My XH used to complain that I was ‘always disagreeing’ with him...as if I just disagreed for the sake of it, not because I was a sane human being with a perfectly good viewpoint. He didn’t want me to disagree with him because he didn’t believe I had any right to disagree with him! It was so frustrating and it is impossible to argue with if someone does this to you.

You end up tying yourself in knots. He is controlling. As far as he is concerned, you are getting in the way by disagreeing with him and for pointing out his double standards. He relies on you to be reasonable i.e. you will be patient, try to tell him how you feel, and make a logical case for why you disagree with him on something. Then he can just shout over you, bulldoze you, undermine you or downright lie in order to get his own way. He will make you ‘be wrong’ at all costs.

I think he is emotionally abusive. He will kick so much dust up about something as simple as the bin, that you won’t know which end is up. He’ll try to make you think black is white.

And as for telling you that you couldn’t cope with another child...well fuck him! That is just headfuckery disguised as fake diddums concern for you ‘aw you don’t want another baby, you’re already a really crap mother with just one of them.’ Nice.

Don’t drag his sorry arse to Relate - like you say, he’ll just use it against you.

Interpret his actions exactly as they appear - he has zero respect for you.

I would be researching shit hot family lawyers in your area. He will NOT improve. Sorry.

Grumpyoldblonde · 25/06/2018 20:08

I used to have one like this - arsehole.

Airblon · 25/06/2018 20:36

My theory about people like this is they set you up as a “straw man”.

So in his head, you’re “mean controlling woman who tells him what to do” and he’s “naughty little fun loving boy rebelling against the horrible mother figure”.

He’ll manipulate every situation to portray you like this.

If (when you dump him) he goes out with , say, some laid back surfer hippy chick, within a couple of years he’ll be claiming she’s “nagging and controlling him”

He’s got an internal narrative in which you’re the bad guy and he’s addicted to it. I’m not sure whether you’d term it MH issues, but it’s generally pretty hard to change.

ChiaraRimini · 25/06/2018 20:49

Yep, my ex disliked his mother and after she died it was like I took her place in his mind, he acted like a spoilt brat/sullen teen with me .

wormbook · 25/06/2018 21:10

My H is around at the moment, but he leaves in the morning for a few days, so I'm going to have a good think and read then. I am grateful for all the opinions.

OP posts:
quickchangemagraw · 25/06/2018 21:27

My husband is similar
It doesn't happen that often though, not enough to warrant ltb- he said something in front of the kids the other day so I had it out with him (again) afterwards and pointed out the madness of what he'd said.
Basically he had kept getting his words wrong all day, more than usual and I said I'm actually a bit worried so he said well tell me next time I do it (as I don't pick him up on it) - so I did and he lept back with "well you just got so and so thing wrong" - to which I pointed out that yes I had got the thing wrong but big deal I accepted that I was wrong but can't he see how unreasonable and crazy his reaction was as he had forgotten he asked me to tell him.

He proceeded to tell me that "the problem is ..... you always want a logical argument" 😂😂😂😂 at that point I think even he could see how mad he was being.

It seems to be a natural reaction - I've learned to walk away and come back when he is being rational - I have faults that rear their head and he puts up with that.

Gottalovethesummer · 25/06/2018 21:48

Do you think that this is a sexist response. How dare a women tell me what to do? My DH does not like to be pulled up about anything, he gets very defensive when "oh, really sorry" would do.

ErrmWTAF · 25/06/2018 22:00

The difference is that only the penis owners are allowed to present rational arguments . Although I could be convinced towards a more socio- or psychopathic scenario, i believe it really is that simple. Most abuse has its roots in sexism. How very dare you call him up on his behaviour?!?

Ask yourself: would be pull a stupid stunt like this with his employer? How long would be keep a job if he did? Or his friends, or the cops?

You're being punished for expecting fair and decent standards, whilst committing the crime of being a girlie.

Absolutely do NOT go for counselling with this specimen.

5LeafClover · 25/06/2018 23:31

Sounds like my stbxh too. Like you i
I tried really hard to understand and to find a way to fix it. Total waste of time, it just got worse. I hope there's a whole load of lovely behaviour that you didn't have space in your post to mention, because what you have mentioned sounds horrid.

Zaphodsotherhead · 25/06/2018 23:33

I had one of these too! He could never ever admit to being in the wrong about anything, and I think, in our ten years together, he never apologised to me once. About anything.

I mean, I don't like being wrong, but if I am I try to admit it and apologise to whoever I've argued with. It just seems that some people will go to any lengths, including trying to convince their partner that they are mad, to avoid someone proving they are at fault.

Eatmycheese · 26/06/2018 01:00

Two options.

  1. Leave him. He is really all about himself based on what I can glean from this things you’ve written here. He is also deeply patronising and controlling.

  2. Stay and carry on putting up with these antics. They will only get worse. You will have to nullify yourself entirely and to such an extent that your expectation are so low it’s the emotional equivalent of potholing.

I know what I’d do.

headache898 · 26/06/2018 01:54

Yes, this describes my ex perfectly. I knew I had to LTB but felt so trapped because I knew he'd never leave willingly. I'd have to vacate the house and take the 3 DCs with me. But miracles do happen. I managed to LTB and keep on living here, which to my family felt like an impossible feat. They couldn't believe it! No, I didn't kill him Grin but I managed to kick him out.
How would he react, OP, if you did decide to end it?

RabbitsAreTasty · 26/06/2018 01:58

Nobody should change. If you don't fit, you don't fit.

^ this

BunnyCarr · 26/06/2018 02:52

he sounds like such a twat.
I would divorce him.

Hilltoptea · 26/06/2018 06:13

Are you sure you're not married to my DP? Hmm

He is never wrong. Very childish and irrational in arguments. Will move heaven and earth to prove that my opinion is wrong or that he doesn't need to apologise. Anybody else would have just said "sorry I forgot" and that would be the end of it.

He completely ignores the double standard! Has also said "it's different with you" in the same context.

No advice sorry (other than leave if you're ready) but you're not alone.
It's shit. It's like living with an irrational teenager at times.

Hilltoptea · 26/06/2018 06:18

Mine will also never resolve anything either and gets angry/shouty if I dare to have a different opinion!

I think it's a combination of crap emotional intelligence and arrogance.

DragonsAndCakes · 26/06/2018 06:19

How often do you do you have exchanges like the bin one?

FuckPants · 26/06/2018 06:31

He sounds like an utter knob.

Laylajaney · 26/06/2018 06:50

Explain to him that you dont like his attitude towards you .That its affecting your relationship.
When children are involved its worth trying to work at it .

pissedonatrain · 26/06/2018 06:56

@Airblon

This is exactly it. They love playing the downtrodden victim. My stbx did this. Told me these stories about how mean his father was.

Then after I caught him cheating on me, he was telling people the exact same lies he told about his father about me! wtf? That I was so mean, controlling, etc. etc.

These people never change because acting like this resolves them of any personal responsibility for anything and they get their way most of the time.

Laylajaney · 26/06/2018 07:04

Mine had an affair and when I asked him questions about it- he got angry and said I was bringing it up all the time and it didnt help situation .
Talk about controlling ! !
Some folks have no self awareness.

Secretlifeofme · 26/06/2018 07:12

I'm not sure it is necessarily a sexist thing, because my female ex used to be like this, whereas my husband is nothing like it. I think sadly you are just in a relationship with an arsehole, and it will grind you down until you end up not arguing because it's too wearing. I know- it took me ten years to leave my abusive ex. But you can do it, and you should do it for your own sanity and self-esteem.

Roystonv · 26/06/2018 07:21

I have one of these who will bend and twist to avoid saying sorry; luckily whilst he can be infuriating he is nice so we get by! but with your oh it just seems to be the tip of the iceberg. If you step back are you just getting it off your chest or are you coming to the conclusion that if things don't improve you need to make a difficult life changing decision?

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