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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Am I being paranoid or not - warning monster post

38 replies

Jeffo1 · 07/06/2018 02:00

So, I've read mumsnet a few times for various things - its good to get a popular opinion as well as a professional one. Here's my personal issue - its a long one so prepare yourself but I've tried to check it for typos and boring shit and make it interesting enough to be worthy your time. I’m going to be as honest as I can so I’m expecting a mixture of responses from feminists, post-feminists, supporters, people who think I’m a knob, so crack on.

I've recently found that my wife of 25 years has been deleting calls that she has made to a male colleague. Our 25th anniversary was 2 two days after I inadvertently found this out and I’m struggling to keep this all together. They are working together on a project and he is 10 plus years older, looks well older according to her, and is not her type in other ways, according to her. There have been around 40 calls to this guy over 3 months and she's deleted them all. I only found out because I wanted to change sim cards for her and our two kids and was looking into a family sim for them all (I took out a contract 6 months ago). She was there when we checked her and our eldest d's phone bill to look into their usage and it was then that I spotted a significant number of calls from her to just one number in one month, mainly because they had been separated out on her bill as a 'uk mobile call'.

Basically, for that month (May), she had called this colleague 21 times - she had called me 7 times in the same month, but texted me probably 50 times and him none. When we were checking her bill, , she was stood beside me and I asked her about the number because it seemed unusual and I could tell her breathing altered to that kind of anxious breathing you can hear when someone is scared. When I asked, she denied knowing the number and I said that was strange because she had called it so many times that month. I said that she had spoken to the person just 5 days earlier for 40 minutes and she had also called the number 4 times on that day so it was weird she didn't know the number, still she denied it. I said that she would have to have dementia to not recognise that shit, but I eventually had to google the number while she was stood there because she would not have it and it came up with his business, and she then immediately coughed to deleting the calls. She said that she deleted a few calls about work from other colleagues on a regular basis because she didn't like people at work having her personal mobile number...this seemed obvious bullshit because deleting calls makes no difference to other people having your number. She then said she had used '141' to hide her identity. After much questioning, she has only used '141' with his number and she has deleted no other calls from work, just his. I said that it seemed that she has used 141 to hide her identity so no one knew who was calling this guy six times in one weekend, or at 6pm on a bank holiday (ie his wife didn't see a number she could call back).

She said that she had been working intensely with this guy on a project, and she had needed to phone him a lot towards the end of the project to talk about it. She said she had then felt guilty about phoning this guy so much, and thought that I would get paranoid about it, so had deleted the calls. I checked the call dates while she was there and found that all apart from two of the calls had been made when she was not at work - either the weekend of her day off. I looked into it further and she had made all of the calls when she was either out of our home or when she was alone. She either called when I had left or when she was shopping or exercising. On one Sunday I dropped my youngest d off on a play date and she called about 3 minutes after I had left our home – I can’t help but think that she was watching me go. On the same day she called him 4 hours later when out on a bike ride and spoke at length – I can’t help but think that she was planning this call before she left, possibly looking forward to it? On another occasion she called the guy immediately after dropping our oldest d at a party and then called him again 10 minutes later. On other occasions, she called him while she was out on other bike rides/walks and when I was watching the kids. The calls have many coincidences, like calling on the same weekday, or calling at lunchtime only, or calling for 50 seconds and then calling one minute later for a long conversation (15-20 mins). On one weekend, she called him 6 times and spoke to him 15 mins on the Sat and then 20 mins on Sun). She says that she just left voicemails and called him back repeatedly because he would not return her calls. I said that weekends and bank holidays are personal times and, get the message, I would not call some random female colleague back because she had called me 6 times in a weekend, and would actually be concerned that she was a bunny boiler. My dh has also called this guy before and after our arguments (arguments mainly about her seeming to give me the impression me she doesn’t give two fcks about me) which I find weird.

She is writing these all off as coincidences, and is saying there is nothing in it. She is saying that she called at weekends because she was wanting to set things up for the week ahead. I say there are too many coincidences to write-off and say that there is nothing that could not wait until Monday - she didn't call any other colleagues at all over the weekend or her day off. She says I should trust her when she says she has not cheated on me. I say she has lied to me and broken our trust, and done it in a way that makes it look like she has done something she wants to hide - ie cheating.
She eventually said that the conversations were rewarding because we weren't getting on and they were easy conversations to have and were supportive because they made her feel better - but she continues to claim that she spoke about nothing but business.

The context is...Me and my wife have been having some issues for several years, we've had a stressful life like everyone else, but the last 10 years have really taken their toll. Basically, we met each other when we were 19/20 and seemed to be made for each other, everyone, particularly us, knew it. We had a great time for 17 years, some ups and downs, but basically great. However, we never planned for family life so we partied during the time most people would be planning for such a life. Eventually we started planning but we were about 10 years behind where we should have been so we've had to fit in 25yrs into 15. I never doubted her for one second and, if anything, I knew it was me who was the wild card - male, opinionated, a little fckd up, expressive to the point of being intense (I should probably have been Italian or some shit, no offence but Italians seem passionate and intense for some reason - tbf I've probably been marketed to fck on Italian traits). I've had my fair share of issues that she's had to deal with because I'm intelligent and think a lot, so I question a lot, I mean lets face it, the world needs questioned right? My DH doesn't take that approach to life and, according to her, prefers the 'slap in the face effect' approach.

Our shared stress has taken the form of me refurbishing our home from scratch (a fckload of work, me DIY, her kids), an ill child (no sleep and plenty of worry for 5+yrs), and very stressful jobs (6+yrs). Our shared life took a tumble during this time and we stupidly took separate paths but I always put it down to stress and that we'd get back to the same path eventually when everything chilled down again. I love her like no one else and will be genuinely impacted for the rest of my life if this fails – I’ll deal with it and move on, but fck, it doesn’t feel like it should be that way. We've had an insanely stressful last 18 months because of a work issue with me where I was suspended on full pay and things fell off a cliff - my employer is a public agency and a corrupt bully and I was having none of it and blew the whistle so they tried to performance manage me out of the organisation and I was having none of that either so I fought it and won in the end.

During this time, she has told me she doesn't like me, doesn't desire me, has said I'm 'getting chunky', losing my hair, and has called me other names and said things like she has no connection with me and doesn't know whether it will come back. At this point, I feel the need the need to point out that none of that shit is real, I'm well fit and strong.

I've made my mistakes and took full responsibility for my part on not communicating well with my wife over the years and said I will be a better man and husband and really put the effort in. I did all of the housework whilst I was handily suspended on full pay by a bunch of public servant fuckwits, looked after the kids, completed most the diy on our home, took her a cup of tea in the morning, bought her flowers, told her she looked nice, hugged her at every opportunity...but got little back. She mellowed a little, but continued to be distant and give the vibes that she wasn't interested.

I was getting massive vibes that she had someone else (basically check any 'top 10 signs of infidelity' and she ticks them all) and asked her a few times about this and she just blamed me for raising the issue and said I was pushing her away every time I raised my concerns. Again, I thought it was the stress, I felt guilty for all of this (work issues, not communicating, etc) and genuinely thought it was me being paranoid for no reason, but couldn't let go of the feeling that something was really wrong. It just seemed wrong. Then I found out that she had been deleting these calls.

My wife has now admitted that she has made a 'massive mistake' and admits that she has wrecked my trust in her, and has taken full responsibility for 'being a bitch' and treating me like a chump.

She is now saying all of the right things but I can't easily shake the fact she called a colleague on her mobile phone more times than she called anyone else, pretty much only on her days off and the weekend, then hid these calls, then denied any knowledge of the number even though she had been busted, then denied any knowledge of the calls, and later agreed that she knew it was wrong at the time but instead of stopping she decided to continue and hide the evidence of her wrongdoing.

I want to believe that she was having a hard time and found someone that took her mind off it all in a non-threatening way. However, I'm struggling with the premeditated element of it all where she knew she was going to make calls that she was going to delete, and the coincidences where she appears to have called as soon as she had free time or before and after we had had an argument. For example, another weird coincidence call is right after we had an appointment about taking out a new fixed rate mortgage - literally, mortgage appointment, drop me off at home, call-the-other-guy-parked-on-the-side-of-the-road-type-of-shit. It all sounds just too weird to me but I love her so much that I can't imagine my life without her, and know deep down that we're supposed to be together, surely? How can that not be the case after so many good times

On top of all of this, we had our 25yr anniversary at the end of the month where she had made 21 calls to this guy. That was a fcking hard-stretch celebration but I tried the best I could because I want to believe my wife has not done what I feel she has done. I know it was hard on her as well. We went away on holiday to another country and had some great times, proper 'first time' memories kind of thing, had some great sex, and had some genuine talks. I want to be a paranoid fckwit who has made a big deal of fck all, and if I am I’ll take it on the chin and move on. Its all hard though because I have a gut and it reacts.
What do you think?

OP posts:
Shoxfordian · 07/06/2018 06:12

It sounds like she has an emotional connection to the guy from work and has disconnected from you. Is he married as well? It could be purely an emotional type affair and not physical but if you assume she cheated on you then would you stay with her anyway or not?
She hasn't been very kind towards you; are you sure you still want to reconnect with her? Maybe some couples counselling would help

AlmostAJillSandwich · 07/06/2018 06:14

Honestly, i think at the very least she's had an emotional affair, possibly a full blown physical one. I also think that if you hadn't caught her out, she'd still be having an affair. Have you checked to make sure she isn't in fact still calling this guy?

The fact she was repeatedly literally waiting it out til the moment she was free to call him, it sounds like there are serious feelings for him on her part, it certainly isn't just casual.

It doesn't matter what ups and downs your relationship has had, there is never an excuse for cheating. If you're not happy you talk about it, and if it can't be resolved, you leave. I'm sorry, but in your shoes, i couldn't stay, i'd have to leave.

Theusual · 07/06/2018 06:19

It sounds like something is definitely going on. I don’t see the point in analysing it too much or working out which days and where you were etc as you will drive yourself crazy.

I think you need an honest conversation with her about her commitment to you. If she says she doesn’t like you and is not attracted to you, I don’t see how that will change unless she really wants to do something about it eg counselling.

I would prepare yourself for it being the beginning of the end but back off all the checking and arguing about it.

RainySeptember · 07/06/2018 06:20

She's told you that she doesn't like or desire you? I don't think I could get past that tbh, and this obvious affair would be the last nail.

To my mind, she doesn't want you but isn't quite in a position to leave.

Unless you're both committed to rebuilding the marriage, through couples counselling ideally for it to stand any chance whatsoever at this point, it sounds like you'd both be happier apart.

Cawfee · 07/06/2018 06:43

Yep she’s had/having an affair. You have to honestly look at yourself and your behaviour if you want to fix this. Reading your post made me feel exhausted. You sound exhausting and domineering and you sound like you’ve been hard work to live with for the last 25 years. While you’ve been so busy proving all of your points (for example your last employer) and constantly spending your life being right and heard, you haven’t spent much energy or time listening to her or just being with her in a pleasant way, not a “I must put the world to rights” kind of way. I get it because I’m married to one like you and it’s absolutely exhausting. When was the last time you did something truly nice for her? Not flowers because “yawn” but actually put some time and thought into doing something she might like? Share her interests. When did you last take her dancing? Say “get your dress on, I’m taking you out” and go somewhere she likes? I’m sorry if this comes across as harsh but you’re posting on here for help and advice and it does you no good to be surrounded by yes men because that won’t fix your marriage. You lost her years ago through impatience, inattention, self absorption and lack of communication. If you really want to save your marriage then the first thing is to go get counselling. Not both of you, just you. Show her that you are willing to work on changing your interactions with her and your outlook on life. Sure I can tell you “she’s a bitch and you should leave” but 100 other people will do that and that’s actually not really what you want. So, book yourself a good counsellor. Book you and her onto a weekend yoga retreat. She likes yoga right? Does she? Have you asked? Do you even really know what she likes or have you been so focused on yourself and your needs and railing against the world that you forgot to ask her what she likes now after 25 years of marriage. So ask. Sit down and chat with her. Truly chat. Not dictate or be overbearing. Be her best friend. Or don’t. It’s obviously up to you but if you do truly love her then it’s worth a try. She rang that fella so many times because she’s lost and lonely. So make her feel not lost and lonely.

Fflamingo · 07/06/2018 07:05

What the previous posts from Rainy and Cawfee say is good advice.
I'm always surprised when posters post about a possibly cheating spouse but say they 'love them to bits' or whatever and can't imagine living without them. I would be so angry I would be secretly planning how I can shove them down the stairs and find an excuse to explain their death to everyone. Possibly that's my dodgy self esteem.
I also think it's easy over a long relationship to find reasons to dislike your spouse which she seems to be doing. If you have an overwhelming crush on someone else you will easily find faults in your existing partner, whether it's that they slurp their tea or have put on a bit of weight over the years. The detail doesn't really matter, she seems to clearly have fallen for this colleague. Talking is the first step I think.

Cambionome · 07/06/2018 08:03

Hmm. Agree with Cawfee on this one. Not trying to excuse her bad behaviour but you sound like an absolutely exhausting person to live with.

Cambionome · 07/06/2018 08:05

Your dw's bad behaviour, that should say - not Cawfee's !

FiestaThenSiesta · 07/06/2018 08:15

I am a bit gobsmacked that someone has decided to read your long post and concluded you must be hard work and sympathise with your cheating partner.

You say you’re very outspoken and don’t mince your words. When she did this...

“During this time, she has told me she doesn't like me, doesn't desire me, has said I'm 'getting chunky', losing my hair, and has called me other names and said things like she has no connection witH”

...how did you respond?

I assume you didn’t silently take it all in but gave back as good of insults as she was and things escalated? Hearing your side of it, this would be a dealbreaker but if you replied with equally horrible things... she might think you feel the same about her as she feels about you and your marriage is dead.

ByeMF · 07/06/2018 08:46

It all sounds totally premeditated. There's no innocent explanation for this. It sounds like there is a lot going on in both of your lives. Problem is, sometimes the relationship takes a back seat.

You obviously still love her. Couples counselling would probably really help you talk honestly to each other. If she won't go, i'd definitely recommend you have counselling on your own. Not because you sound crazy, just that it will help you work everything through and decide what's best for you.

Onemansoapopera · 07/06/2018 09:10

MN bias as usual yawn . Your wife has been a deceitful prick and it sounds like this behaviour is not unusual for either or both of you in this relationship. I'd let her go. Life will go on without this drama of a marriage.

Dadaist · 07/06/2018 09:19

Sorry OP - but you are receiving shit advice that would NEVER be given to a woman whose husband was having an affair (physical or emotional). In just about EVERY relationship ommunication breakdown and disconnection is down to both parties. Turning that into ‘this is your fault, be her best friend’ when she has been deceitful and trashed your trust is basically saying ‘dance the pick me dance!’

I didn’t find your post exhausting at all - and certainly not domineering- that’s just posters projecting their own experiences on to you. What I read was someone desperately thinking and explaining and trying to articulate the sense of dread that is weighing them down. I can’t say whether you have been selfish, up your own arse etc. You know the truth of your own responsibility in where things have got to. But she has a duty to express her unhappiness or loneliness too. Sounds to me you’ve both been experiencing that in the relationship. It doesn’t make an affair something you can fix by being nicer!

Firstly your DW needs a bloody big wake up call - because her behaviour threatens to trash your entire family life - and she’s not considered that for one second until now. And while of course you need to adddress and change those aspects of the relationship that you have contributed to, there is no way she can simply consider her actions as excusable. If she can’t admit what she has done, or show any remorse - then this will eat you alive! So you need to tell her how you feel - your doubts - your hopes - and admit what’s gone wrong on both sides.

If she’s still having an affair - then all @Cawfee,s advice will drive her further away.

Jeffo1 · 07/06/2018 10:00

hmmm, a mixture of opinions...thanks for the responses. Cawfee, prepare yourself to be exhausted, its another long one.

I agree she's had an emotional relationship - guaranteed. According to her, the other guy knew nothing about it because he 'works 24/7' but I don't think so. Would I stay if she had cheated, nope. I can't believe she would, she's never lied like this before and I can't believe she'd hurt everyone by cheating.

I think there were serious feelings as well given the call times, etc. My bro said the same thing about leaving, which was a reality check.

I've already dealt with the loss of my relationship because I thought it was over several months ago but didn't know what to do - 25yrs, mortgage, home, kids, extended family, I'd lose them all really. I still want to check because I don't want to end things on a hunch - I don't want to end things at all really but feel like I need to know I was just being paranoid.

Rainy sept - I agree.

Cawfee - I think you're possibly writing to your husband, not me, show him your post it might help.

Fflam - I guess there are two sides to everything and don't feel blameless. I still love her because that doesn't go away easily after 25yrs. I also got angry about it and my initial thought was to smash everything I could easily get my hands on but tried to keep it on the downlow for the kids.

In reality, I agree I can be hard to live with and probably exhausting because of my look at life but I'm also well chilled as well so it is balanced - the lengthy post stemmed from a bottle of red and me having no one else to talk to about this because its well embarrassing. I'm embarrassed about using mumsnet tbh, but if there was a dadsnet I already know the responses - "have an affair yourself, kill the guy and you'll feel better, get hammered, fck her, etc". Its also difficult to try to get across the situation in a short post.

I have been wrapped up in myself because of my job and the overall stress, but so has she. We have said some harsh things to each other, but hers have mainly been about how bad I am and mine have mainly been about how she doesn't seem to want to sort things out. Am I domineering, probably but not intentionally, my family is the same, and I also know when to take a backseat. However, I am also very keen on looking at other people's opinions so very rarely think I am right on anything, its more like socratic reasoning that I do than anything else. I suppose I do like to know about the far end of a fart though.

Regarding putting the world to rights, I've always been like that and the first 17 years were good but I've also tried to do it constructively - my job was helping incredibly broken people put their lives back together to help them and everyone around them and it takes a lot of challenging of things to do that and I suppose I adopted some of it as a personality trait (being pissed off about how the the world really works included). The reason I had a problem with my employer (most of the staff did but I was the only one who pushed it because they all rolled over) was they were breaking the law and harming vulnerable people as a result and I would not stand by and let that happen. To me it isn't about being right, its about doing the right thing.

I've also done many of the things Cawfee alluded to like asked my wife to do things together (including ironically dancing and biking/running), asked her to go away for the weekend with me, asked her to go away scuba diving with me (i'm acutely aware that these things involved me and that's what she was probably avoiding). There was always a reason to say no. Now its her who is doing the suggesting.

We also discussed counselling as an option, but finding the right one is difficult. I trained and worked as a counselor so I know most of the local ones (I'm expecting some comments about knowing what to do, but in reality you can't counsel yourself because of the emotional baggage). I've had counselling already and the outcome of a recent session was the counselor saying "you need to accept that your wife may not love you anymore".

Like I said, I've also done some stupid things over the years that have got in the way and made things bad and may have indirectly pushed away, but I've never actively pushed her away like she seems to have done. We have talked at length about the situation, and one of the main things that frustrated me over the years was her not wanting to talk about things, so its good she's eventually talking. She's also well sorry about things, accepts her part (which she never did) and wants to make it work.

I want to believe that she is stressed, we drifted apart, there is still a good foundation, she hasn't had an affair, and she's made a stupid but innocent mistake. Doubt is a poor thing in any relationship though and I'm not sure it will ever go away.

I just wanted to know what the common sense appraisal was regarding the deleted calls, because I'm just locked in my head otherwise with only my opinion = worst possible outcome and paranoia.

OP posts:
Jeffo1 · 07/06/2018 10:04

Thanks for the last three responses as well - agree with them all in different ways on different days.

OP posts:
Jeffo1 · 07/06/2018 10:26

Clearly got too much time on my hands.

Plus, I also feel like a right wimp and I've been treated like one. Ironically, the other guy (winds me up using that description) seems a bit like me - blunt, straight talking, takes no shit, so its a bit confusing.

I wonder if the position I've been in as stay at home dad has anything to do with it? Like I have less standing in the relationship. I do feel a bit invisible - she even forgot that I was with her on a day out on a holiday last year, she remembered her family was there but not me. Wtf?

OP posts:
Fflamingo · 07/06/2018 13:34

To me it isn't about being right, its about doing the right thing

I might be barking up the wrong tree but I had a view of myself as a fine upstanding member of society. Always willing to help, putting myself out for others. Then I realised that this is not what people value, they don't want someone telling them what they should do or how to fix things, they don't always appreciate a doormat or someone doing stuff so they then owe them. . What they do like is someone who is witty and good fun to be with, makes them laugh and lives life to the full.
You might not be so invisible if you were putting your needs first and not pandering to others. I know that SAHMs are not valued much in society having been one.
Have you had counselling to see what YOU want in life, where YOU see your life going, even if not counselling have you really thought about yourself, rather than needing another person to love you to make you happy, what would make you happy if alone? what do you want?sod your DW

RainySeptember · 07/06/2018 17:30

The victim-blaming posts are outrageous. How can you pull apart a person's entire personality based on one desperate, anonymous post? You have accused him of things for which there is no evidence whatsoever.

And actually, even if it were all true, it's no excuse to pursue an affair. No ones got a gun to her head. If she's so miserable why doesn't she walk? Unlike many wives on here, trapped by finances, she works full time.

I'll tell you why : like every cheater who ever lived, she doesn't want to give up a cosy domestic set up until she's certain there's a better option.

Op, I've been in your position and sympathise. I think you sound very self aware, and i it's a good sign that you have already pursued counselling. I think all you can do is talk to each other frankly. Ask the right questions even if you fear the answers. Redouble your efforts to reconnect or, if she is unwilling, let her go with dignity.

FuckItPassMeTheWine · 08/06/2018 00:11

Sorry I think she has cheated physically with this man, sod taking her dancing (like some previous poster mentioned) . If a female had wrote this there would be a barrage of “LTB!!! & get your ducks in a row hun” If I was you I would find yourself a good solicitor pronto . It hurts the most being betrayed by someone you love and I think you know deep down that she has cheated but you don’t yet want to admit this to yourself ....I’m sorry she has put you through this, remeber though time is a fantastic healer and you will get through this. Sending you strength Flowers

Cricrichan · 08/06/2018 00:51

I think she's at least having an EA.

I don't like the way you list your not so good personality traits but then excuse them as that's the way you are, your family is and you've been all your life, your job makes you like that. If the behaviour is boorish then instead of excising it why don't you try and be a nicer person to spend time with?

Dadaist · 09/06/2018 10:11

OP - it’s clear that you are absolutely not paranoid, and you seem to have talked yourself down to a place where you are nervous of even raising the slightest doubts about your DW for fear of being in the wrong. And that very fear is what will drive her away - because you don’t trust yourself and she won’t respect that.
So I think you’re only chance is to read up on how to respond to infidelity - don’t do the pick me dance, and stop blaming yourself! It’s equally your DWs responsibility to raise problems and nurture your relationship - not seek thrills from another man. Of course your trust is wrecked.
But worse is the gaslighting - telling you that you were paranoid and that you were driving her way when - you knew that things were wrong - treating you like an idiot!
She needs to face up to what’s happened and that your marriage might be over. You have to be sure she is no longer involved with OM. And saying all the right things now could just be an attempt to distract your suspicions. If things go back to how they have been in a month or so - just get your ducks in a row.
At the risk of huge irony - unless you are absolutely prepared to end things then you have nothing to offer reason to address issues and rekindle your relationship- if that’s even what you want to do.

NotTheFordType · 09/06/2018 16:50

Would I stay if she had cheated, nope. I can't believe she would, she's never lied like this before and I can't believe she'd hurt everyone by cheating.

Mate, Denial is not just a river in Africa.

She's totally on this guy's dick. Sorry.

She's already told you she doesn't like you and doesn't find you attractive! Why are you still there? Are you financially dependent on her? What is the housing and childcare situation? Could you get back into work relatively easily?

Dadaist · 11/06/2018 01:34

NotTheFordType - what makes you certain she’s in or had a physical affair? Genuine question - is it her full and total denial of phone calls? Or the way they were made so secretly? I’m interested in your perspective/conclusion.

Dadaist · 11/06/2018 01:35

@NotTheFordType

NotTheFordType · 11/06/2018 02:05

At the risk of repeating myself, "she's already told you she doesn't like you and doesn't find you attractive", let alone the incredibly obvious "no you can't look at my phone because, er, reasons".

NotTheFordType · 11/06/2018 02:11

God sorry, that was brutal - but you're really coming across as wanting to put your head in the sand and just hope it all goes away.

It's absolutely fine to make that decision if it's best for you. Plenty of people choose to overlook sexual fidelity and stay in relationships that are otherwise beneficial to them and their their DC.

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