Wwyd *trigger warning* family violence

[Tattycorum]

So my husbands sister and husband live a couple streets away from us. Our dcs are the same age and we see a lot of each other. No other family close by for any of us.
Me, dh and fil have been concerned about bil for a while. He always seems angry with the kids, name calls with them, and handles them roughly (rough grabbing/pushing when he is mad (which is often)). We have tried bringing it up with him and sil, offered support etc but bil gets defensive and sil gets upset.
We were on an outing last week and bil snapped and really hurt eldest dc age 8. Pushes her roughly to the ground, she was bleeding. I cuddled her and reassured her she was not in the wrong (she said she deserved it). Bil came to take her from me and I said I didn’t feel good about handing her to him. He told me not to judge and I said I was judging and would call the authorities next time, and that he needed to get help.
Bil and sil are now in counselling but have told dh I am not allowed access to their kids as the fact I told my niece she was not in the wrong, and told bil I would call authorities in her presence, was inappropriate. I am pretty unrepentant and actually did call child services (who aren’t investigating) but given our families are so close what should I do? Just wait for bil and sil to calm down? Dh says they are pretty shaken so they might come round. Am I being unreasonable to not want much to do with bil going forward? Sil is ok and I want to support her. She is v young with v little life experience. I am worried for my nieces and want to stay in their lives.

Very tricky.

I'd stay in touch with SIL and the children, if you can.

Hopefully the counselling will work, though if it is couples' counselling he may be able to manipulate the counsellor.

You sound as though you have a good understanding of the situation. Follow your instincts.

Yes, do your best not to isolate your SIL, she is likely also experiencing his wrath.

Those poor girls blaming themselves for being terrorised.

Thanks @pickleme. I think it is seperate counseling. Bil had a violent childhood so has a lot of work ahead. Sil and dh grew up with very gentle parents.
I feel that I am the scapegoat for sil and bil, they both feel intensely ashamed of their situation and it is human nature to try and shift blame. They are dredging up every instance of things I have done wrong over the years, trying not to take it personally but am struggling.

Yes @moveable I was sickened when my dn said that.

It's likely he is treating SIL the same or worse behind closed doors.

I'm sorry You care, it's good that sil and the kids have you, hopefully they will eventually be free of this abuser. Keep trying to stay in their lives. Your DH needs to appear 'neutral' imo, to facilitate that.
SS won't investigate? That's appalling. I'd keep calling, or DH could, about every further incident, or even if there aren't to your knowledge - because there will be. They will try to distance themselves so you don't see anything ofc.

Yes I was shocked re child services. But will defo report anything further. And have told the school head so they are aware. Sil has always seemed to be the dominant one in the marriage, but my dcs told me last week he talks to her the way he talks to the kids. My dcs saw the whole incident and have had many questions. We have been upfront with them in an age appropriate way. They are 9 and 11. They still want to spend time at sils although when we asked them how they feel about bil they said they were afraid of him. They are never there with bil alone and mostly he is at work and not there. Dh and sil want them to still visit, I want them to keep relationships with sil and their cousins but am afraid I am doing the wrong thing letting them go there?

I wouldn't want them to go there without you. You never know when BIL might get home early and they could witness abuse. It is difficult but your absolute first priority is to protect your own children.

I would not let my children in that house if you were not allowed to be there too.

Thanks guys. Yes that is my concern, that they will witness more abuse. As to me not being allowed in the house, I am trying to seperate out what is between me and sil and bil, and the dcs relationship with their aunt and cousins. I have definitely felt like banning them from visiting on the basis that I can’t go there, but that would be coming from the part of me that feels hurt and I don’t want to use the kids in a battle between me and the other adults. So that would not be a reason for not visiting. The chance of witnessing abuse would be. I think that chance is low, and the dcs are old enough to tell me if it happened (and they would not be visiting again after that). But maybe I am setting the boundaries too low?

My sil and bil now want us to attend counseling to address the issues they have with us. This has been suggested by their counsellor which makes me think they have been focused on us in their therapy and not on the abuse issues. Dh and I are going to decline, but let them know we are ready to have a relationship with them again once they are ready. It is all so hard, don’t know if we are doing the right thing and would love to discuss on here with you all.

You would have been better phoning the police and reporting the assault, as that is what it was. Its a horrible spot to be in, and the counselling sounds like they want you to collude in their terrible dynamics. Glad you declined. You need to decide what you are comfortable living with. Can you just see sil and kids at your place? I would suggest until there are some pretty massive changes made you keep your children away from that environment. I would also suggest to sil that she gets help alone.

Inviting you and your DH to counselling sounds more like manipulation to scapegoat you both rather than deal with the issues at hand. If you can have a word alone with your SIL and say you're sorry for any trouble that was caused by you calling SS (I agree you did the right thing there) this will hopefully soften her up a bit and then say you did it because you were worried about her and the kids and if she ever wants to talk she can come to you. At this point all you can do it monitor the situation and if your kids come back and tell you anything has happened I agree with not allowing them to go again, your BIL sounds like a bully and is blaming it all on you people like him don't change if isn't you today it will somebody or something else to blame. Hopefully your SIL sees sense and gets away from him

I wouldn’t let your D.C. go there and I wouldn’t challenge him directly again, it just causes wagon circling.

Counselling where there’s domestic abuse is unlikely to work.

What you need now is a way of connecting with SIL, and allowing the cousins to keep in touch and hopefully she’ll feel safe to disclose some of this to you and you can support her.

But really you mustn’t challenge him again. It’s risky for his wife and children.

Thanks all. I am glad I challenged him as at least they are both in counseling now (individual not together) and if the challenge hadn't happened they wouldn't have taken that action. They are bricking it that child services will be called so are giving at least the appearance of wanting to change. I don't think she is in danger from him, he really is a small man in every sense and would never take on an adult. Children are an easier target
Dh and I are trying to stay low key and let sil know the door is always open. Sadly I think our refusal to attend counseling, even delivered with love, will pour fuel on the fire. Sil is dredging up everything she thinks I have done wrong over the last 15 years, it's not nice having so much hatred directed at me. But I do understand it is misdirected anger.
Thanks all for your replies, it is really helping me.

OP, social services are very underfunded (this is from a professional experience). If your concerns are going unheeded, as unfortunately a lot do...send an email to your local mp and try to make any future council correspondence in writing so you can evidenence it. MPs scare the life out of council directors when they ask questions and it make investigations happen. In the meantime any concerns call the police, in this instance you are right in that the loyalty to your sis is overridden by protecting her children

Yes poor child services am pretty sure they just don't have the resources to respond, there is some horrendous shit that goes down in our area. Good suggestions regarding the mp and the police.

They expect you to go for counselling at your expense to sort their issues with you? They must be deluded.

Issue of who would pay hasn’t arisen, mine and dhs main objection is it sounds deeply unhealthy!

I'd phone the NSPCC about my concerns that social services aren't investigating. BIL really needs to seek help it doesn't sound like he thinks physically assaulting a small child whatever she did so she ends up bleeding is much of a big deal or do their counsellors if it's been mentioned as the counsellors should have reported such a disclosure themselves to the authorities?

But yes if we agreed to go the next request would be payment and time off work for the session.

Whatever you decide to do, please remember that there are children at the heart of this, who have been (still are?) being physically abused.

This isn't about adults and honestly, I see some excusing going on here. I'd be inclined to report the incident to the police if the SS won't investigate. Police should have been your first call, not ss. A child was assaulted.

@differntname, what is the excusing? Genuine question I want to do the best I can. It is hard as I am not allowed at sils house now. If she and bil were not in counseling I would persevere with reporting but I do want to give them a chance. HD is round there every day checking on their dcs, and the school are aware also. I am asking questions on here to make sure I do the right thing, hence why it seems to be about the adults (checking re counseling etc)

*dh. I honestly didn’t think of calling the police at the time, would certainly not hesitate to call if anything else happens. I do want to give sil a chance, she is really struggling and to call the police at this stage over the incident we saw would crush her completely, actually think she would have a full scale break down which will not help her dcs.

Tatty I understand your defensiveness if you fell 100% confident this will help. But if you have even the smallest doubt then please call the police

You only have to read studies to see how quickly things can trigger unwell people, I think this is where the above poster is coming from

We don’t want you to live with what ifs if something really bad happened and you said nothing