Wwyd *trigger warning* family violence

[Tattycorum]

So my husbands sister and husband live a couple streets away from us. Our dcs are the same age and we see a lot of each other. No other family close by for any of us.
Me, dh and fil have been concerned about bil for a while. He always seems angry with the kids, name calls with them, and handles them roughly (rough grabbing/pushing when he is mad (which is often)). We have tried bringing it up with him and sil, offered support etc but bil gets defensive and sil gets upset.
We were on an outing last week and bil snapped and really hurt eldest dc age 8. Pushes her roughly to the ground, she was bleeding. I cuddled her and reassured her she was not in the wrong (she said she deserved it). Bil came to take her from me and I said I didn’t feel good about handing her to him. He told me not to judge and I said I was judging and would call the authorities next time, and that he needed to get help.
Bil and sil are now in counselling but have told dh I am not allowed access to their kids as the fact I told my niece she was not in the wrong, and told bil I would call authorities in her presence, was inappropriate. I am pretty unrepentant and actually did call child services (who aren’t investigating) but given our families are so close what should I do? Just wait for bil and sil to calm down? Dh says they are pretty shaken so they might come round. Am I being unreasonable to not want much to do with bil going forward? Sil is ok and I want to support her. She is v young with v little life experience. I am worried for my nieces and want to stay in their lives.

I hear you @why. I knew standing up to bil and reporting would trash my relationship with them, but I did it because the dcs matter more. Except, now it has happened, now the relationship is trashed, I feel dreadful and am second guessing myself. I hate confrontation and having someone I am usually close to hating on me is hard, it is hard not to feel guilty and want to smooth it over.

Counselling isn’t going to fix a thing.

You have in that family a father who is not just physically harmful but emotionally abusive.

The mother, despite you being quite convinced that she has the upper hand in the relationship and isn’t being hurt, has inexplicably chosen to do nothing whatsoever to protect her DC.

It’s worse than you seem to think it is. Your husband is not a child protection professional, your verbal challenges to the abuser are NOT helpful. Counselling is a waste of time. Please grasp all of this. You’re deflecting a lot.

Where my bil will have the upper hand is financially, sil has never had a job. He is also her first and only partner, so she knows nothing else. I think that is why she stays. In terms of verbally challenging bil, it was a shocking situation to be in and we had to intervene physically. What I said to him was said in the heat of the moment, but I truly don’t see the alternative. Remain silent?

What’s a bit confusing is that you do sound as though you expect your verbal intervention (and the counselling) to change something.

It doesn’t work like that with people who hurt their children. There’s a pathology there.

(You are asking “WWYD” after all.)

You are right @battle I did ask wwyd. Surely counselling will help sil, if she has a good counsellor and communicates the issues to her? Of course I hope she will ultimately leave bil and am hoping she will unpick stuff enough in counseling to get strong enough to do that.
Right now, if police we called, I really believe she would break down to the point of being institutionalised. That would leave the kids with bil. I don’t think there is enough evidence there for the authorities to remove the dcs.

I've been to a therapy session with someone who views reality differently than the rest of the world would. My presence gave the therapist a VERY different view on the situation. Not by the things I'd wanted to tell them "from my side" but things I mentioned in passing assuming the therapist knew. The fact that the therapy had been going on a year without the person telling the therapist these things made the counselling completely different.

If BIL is in therapy you can bet he says:

"Sometimes I get tired at the end of the day and get a bit angry when the kids whine and SIL makes it into something it isn't. It's really hard because she just adds stress. I really want a good relationship with her and BIL but it's so difficult when they are so sensitive."

Not

"I physically assaulted my daughter, she was bleeding and the police should have been called. I am lucky they weren't."

It's possible that your relationship is already trashed so you've nothing to lose. If it's HIS therapist that is. If it's HERS then no way. And if it's not couple counselling I'm not sure they should be seeing the same therapist. As he's abusive, they shouldn't be having couples counselling anyway, even separately with the same therapist.

I think he's trying to deflect his behaviour by suggesting you're in some way at fault. His kids are scared of him, bottom line, your DH needs to support his sister and earn the BIL as it's unacceptable and he's witnessed it - good luck

It would be with her therapist. Not sure if they see the same counsellor separately, or if they have different counsellors. @staying it would not surprise me if that is the ‘facts’ he is offering in therapy.

Are your SiL/BiL happy for their kids to come over to yours still?

@castasp, no. Their dcs are v badly behaved (and I understand why), when they come to our place there are rules (like not jumping on furniture, not deliberately breaking toys) and dh and I spend a lot of their visits gently enforcing those rules. They have complained to sil that we are mean/not fun and that is part of the issue she is having with me. As soon as bil assaulted my dn and we spoke out, she came back with the counter point that her dcs don’t like being told off by me, and doesn’t want them around me anymore.
It is v sad.

I would go to the counselling. The counsellor would be obliged to report what you will say about the abuse to the authorities and maybe they will take action this time. Poor kids.

The passivity of your SIL is really worrying, don’t you think?

She’s not stepping in automatically to protect the children and you think official intervention would leave her “institutionalised”. So how is this going to be stopped? Do you think sh s likely to tell the counsellor the truth? Do you think she can even SEE what’s amiss? ATM it sounds like a lot of energy is going into disparaging you (the only person who has named the problem).

I suspect you’re completely wrong about her ability to step up.

I'm no expert, but I'd consider attending the counselling with them, primarily as a way of supporting your SIL and the kids. It gives you a way in.

I've read Lundy Bancroft and understand that couples counselling with an abuser can be counterproductive, BUT this is a different situation. You don't know yet - maybe the counsellor will be great. You can't know what she is going to say or how useful it might be, unless you try. I appreciate that it would be an imposition and an expense, but it seems so defeatist to just write it off as useless without trying.

to you for being such a caring SIL and aunt.

Nb I'm impressed that they suggested counselling, Btw. That already makes them so, so much more reasonable than my family & their friends, who - if you questioned them hitting their kids - would probably tell you to F* off and then threaten to hit you too. That's what I see as "normal".

Thanks for your kind words @Mary. I know what you mean about being told to f off and threatened with a thumping! Tbh I think this is the non physical, passive aggressive way of doing just that!
@battleax, sil has not been right since her mum passed two years ago. Just very fragile and constantly I a state of crisis. She wasnt quite right before then either but mil propped her up. Maybe I am overestimating her ability to step up

@Tattycorum
Re the excusing ... Your BIL and SIL turning this all on you, the excuse of his violent childhood, your refusal to go to counseling (so you can get across what YOU think the issue is. In my head, they KNOW you won't attend, so asking you to go is just playing games and grandstanding for the counselor, and again, they get to tell their counselor that you refused because you "don't want to fix this" which makes YOU look problematic to the counselor not them), thinking your dh checking in daily will suffice to keep the kids safe, your worry about the SIL's possible breakdown, never mind that your nieces/nephews are being abused.

I get, it must be a shit place to be in, and I do not wish to add to that, but as someone whose close (female teenage) family member was being sexually abused by another close (male adult) family member, had I known, I would have shouted it to anyone who needed to hear it.

Surely counselling will help sil, if she has a good counsellor and communicates the issues to her? But she isn't communicating, is she? Because the counselor/s want you and your dh to attend. This is being seen as a relationship issues between adults, not a case of child endangerment.

If they were being honest, the counselor would have reported them to safeguarding by now.

Your dh checks, while admirable, are not going to stop any of the children being hurt in between times. It is clearly giving you a false sense that all is OK!

I’d go to the counselling too. That way you have an in with SIL. Who sounds like she needs support. If you want to rebuild your relationship with her going to the counselling will help. And you are likely to be more honest with the counsellor.

I think you should consider attending the counselling too, even if just once. It sounds like a horrible situation.

Coming back to update. Dh has discovered from sil and bil that they have used thier counseling sessions to bitch about me, not address their family issues in any way. Sil has bad mouthed me to her kids and they have told my kids. My kids are not going round there anymore. Fil was initially concerned about bils behaviour but is now sympathetic to sils view (that I am trying to split up her family out of spite) Dh is fighting my corner a bit but still attending a family get together today that that I am not welcome at.
What the hell do I do? Am going to talk to police today as no one is interested in addressing the assault on my neice. Honestly feel like taking my DC's and moving back to my hometown, about 40 mins away from here.

Are their children in danger? Are they being abused or damaged?

Those are the most important questions. Everything else is secondary. Delicate family dynamics, keeping the peace, not rocking the boat - none of these are more important than the safety and well-being of the children.

Please keep that in mind when deciding what to do.

Yes that is why i am going to the police today. However I don’t think it takes away from that for me to express how difficult i find all of this. Because this stuff is not easy. And i think a lot of people don’t act because of that. And i am just looking for someone to give me a bit of support for my feelings. Having the feelings doesn’t mean i wont do the right thing. But having someone recognise that yes, it is hard, just one person, would give me much needed support.

Sorry OP, I didn’t mean to come across so coldly. I know can be a bit blunt.

Of course it’s hard for you!! You sound like the most together person in the whole mess. And also very strong because even though it’s so hard, you’re still going to do the right thing by those kids. That takes courage that a lot of people don’t have.

Have you considered counselling just for you, not connected with the counselling your SIL and BIL have suggested, so that you can sort out your feelings?

Thanks @NoMore, you have made my day with your kind words. Yes am in the process of arranging counseling for myself.

Tattycorum, you are trying so hard to do the right thing in a very difficult situation. Many people would turn a blind eye because of the family situation.
You can turn it over to the police and maybe try SS again. Perhaps you'd get a different response from a different person. I think it's very important that you are doing this. You'll be able to look this children in the eye when they're adults and know that you didn't let fear of consequences for yourself stop you standing up for them.

Maybe the in-laws will continue to blame it all on you ; their opinion of you isn't something you can control. But I bet they'll be more careful with their kids now, because BIL knows that he's accountable. That's what matters.