Aggression - was I wrong to say this?

[RebeccaWithTheGoodHair]

DH has left me, not totally unexpected (I had a thread yesterday about it). But the reason he has given is difficult to understand.

To recap quickly, our relationship has deteriorated and we have had some big arguments. I didn't explain the detail of these arguments yesterday but they it is relevant so I wanted to ask your opinion:

No 1 - I can't remember exactly what the row was about, this was perhaps a year ago. He lost his temper and tipped/threw the dining table over so it broke

No 2- a few weeks ago, it was an argument about money. He shouted I was a fucking bitch and had ruined his life. He stormed upstairs and we heard crashing around. Came back down, shouting at me again and then left. Went upstairs afterwards and he had smashed a wooden stool into his bathroom door, the chair was tipped over and there is a big gouge about halfway up the door. He said afterwards that he tripped over the stool and threw it out of his way. I say that's impossible from the height and the fact the hole goes all the way through the door.

No 3 - on Sunday. The argument about hot cross buns. I went back to chopping garlic as he went to get the burnt buns, we were shouting at each other. As he walked through the door he turned around, bunched his fist and said 'you' in a manner I took to be a threat. He left after that.

He says that he has never hit me and never would, and it is unacceptable that I think he might. I say when he loses his temper he acts in an aggressive manner and that it does occur to me that he could hit me. He says this is completely made up in my mind and I have no reason to think he would and he can't live with someone who does think that. He also said in another argument (not a too serious one) that I was banging my hands on the table and that could have been taken as aggressive by me. He also said I had a knife in my hand in argument 3 (I did, I was chopping garlic) so was equally as likely to attack him as he was me when he bunched his fist and said 'you'.

So the question is whether this aggression is acceptable because everyone loses their temper? I'm not frightened of him but it does spring into my mind when he is like that that he could hit me. Is it unreasonable to have said that to him?

In the nicest possible way OP, of course he's being aggressive, and of course you're right to take it that way. Saying you are also aggressive is his way of normalizing his behaviour with the bonus of blaming you for yet another thing.
I had this too. I was never hit by my ex but found out years later that he'd been physically aggressive with our son and no one in the family had told me!!!!
And sooner or later you will be told that if you didn't get him worked up he wouldn't behave that way - thus still making it all your fault and giving him permission to carry on.

It sounds as though he's done you a favour by leaving.
You say "we heard crashing around" so I assume there were children in the house? You need to get yourselves out of that aggressive atmosphere.

If the relationship is over, it's not particularly helpful to argue with him about whose fault it is.

Sorry I know I sound like I'm minimising it. It's just we've been together 25 years, I can't believe it's over because of this.

Yes, DD was there and knew what was going on.

I'm so confused, I know I'm right and that it can't be like this. If he had counselling could he be the man he used to be?

I'm thinking stuff that if I saw anyone else post about I would think just get the hell away from him.

Why has he changed so much? He says I treat him badly, maybe I do, I just don't know any more. Our arguments are futile, we can never agree about anything.

He says I'm horrible to him.

He says that it was reasonable to ask me to check on the hot cross buns as I was headed that way. I was headed that way but I had garlic all over my fingers and didn't want to touch the buns and make them garlicky. Then it all deteriorated with both of us shouting at each other, not listening to each other's reasons: I could have got them from his POV and that I would have ruined them if I did get them with the garlic from my POV.

I was stuffing lamb and they were big and sticky cloves of garlic, it really was all over me, I wasn't making it up, I was headed to the sink to wash my hands.

How fucking stupid and pathetic that our marriage ends over buns and garlic. 21 years ago he proposed to me when I was chopping lettuce. What a fucking farce it ends pretty much the same way.

You need counselling. Both of you.

If that is how you communicate then if you want to salvage it counselling.

And Anger management for him. His behaviour is totally out of control.

It's not ending because of buns and garlic, it's ending because he's aggressive and threatening.

Also very alarming that he continually downplays this or outright denies he did it.

You are doing the right thing. Sure you may both be arguing over petty things, shouting over the top of one another, but his reactions (and denials) aren't normal or acceptable.

Hope you're ok.

I'm not OK no. I just want my husband back who would never behave like this or walk out on us.

I can't understand how he's changed so much that these things are happening. He really isn't like that so it must be me that's driven him to it.

Thank you though. I'm not arguing with you and very grateful for the

He won't go to counselling, I asked. I know I'm not blameless.

It must feel very painful and raw at the moment.
I suppose you can look at it as a glass full of water. The water being the problems at the very core of your relationship and little disagreements drip into the glass causing it to overflow.

Sorry not a very good analogy. It sounded better in my head

Couples counselling may help. I don't know if you can pinpoint the reasons why you can't get along.
I do know that unless he can take responsibility for his angry outbursts and control his temper then this is not salvageable. It is not your fault that he reacts with aggression to minor rows. Blaming you is a classic sign of abuse.
Throwing comments like "I hate you, fucking bitch" etc are a verbal slap in the face. You are being emotionally abused.

Every couple have little squabbles and annoy each other but the way he's reacting with violence is a massive problem. Either you have to tip toe around him in case he blows up or you argue back and get him kicking off.

Don't let your dd grow up seeing him as a role model for a partner or father. She will grow up thinking this is how women are treated by men.

The fact that he hasn't hit you does not make his aggression acceptable.

The glass is actually a really good analogy.

Yes, 25 years and it's been filled up over that time without either of us realising. I've always been the more decisive one, I've made him do things over the years that have suited me, mainly (I think) because one of us had to be proactive and make decisions. But perhaps for him it has just been too much to ask and now he can't cope any more.

He says I don't tell him about stuff with DD at school. I guess I don't but that's not because I don't want to, just because I kind of think he should find out/assimilate it from conversations rather than me having to specifically tell him about things like assemblies. He said I went ahead and put down the preferences for her next school without him. I thought we had discussed it, there are only 3 options and you have to put 3 choices but know already which one you'll be allocated so it's a bit of a pointless exercise. So I did put the submission in but someone had to do it.

Oh god that's reminded me of another row. We were doing the visits to the schools and he was driving, I thought he knew the way. He started going the wrong way so I said no you need to turn round and go that way. It all kicked off and ended up with him taking me and DD home, refusing to come with us so I drove over just she and I.

Why why why. I haven't even really noticed all these things building up. I was right though, he was going the wrong way. But he says that I was out of order to talk to him like he was a fool and how could he know where he was going. It's a school in town that we've driven past lots of times. I just assumed he knew, maybe I was snappy when I said to turn round. I just don't know, I didn't think I was but he says I talk to him in a horrible manner.

I'm so sorry going on like this, don't feel obliged to reply, it's helping just writing it down (that's a lie, it's not helping, it's making feel worse because I can keep seeing that our relationship has been shit. But it wasn't always, we had years of being happy I thought).

None of your examples are your fault. I'm sorry but for whatever reason he's turned into an aggressive arsehole.

Your poor daughter in the car That's upsetting to read. Again, not your fault.

I think it's natural to grieve for a failed relationship and focus on the good early days but keep your feet on the ground- you've been unhappy for a long time now by the sounds of it.

But surely if someone speaks to you in a manner you don't like (you think they've snapped), then it's more natural to say 'all right, it's fine, I'm..turning the car round now, no need to be sharp', rather than slamming and smashing and over dramatic car turning round and all that?

You can politely point out that you don't like the way someone speaks to you without having to go all Hulk on it. Sounds as though he has taken to over reacting in a major way.

Sometimes these things build up naturally but other times they get worse if one partner - the agreeable one who usually just does things - starts being more assertive or wants to be treated differently. That can be when the one used to getting their own way becomes more aggressive in response to the change.
Is it at all possible that the reason you feel you are to blame is because you are saying more or putting up with less from him?

Does he want to change (does he accept he's in the wrong when he's soo aggressive ) and apologise?

I ask because dh has been like this but we worked out, it's after he's eaten wheat . See Wheat Belly by William Davis MD. it inflames the gut and affects behaviour (the blind rage that men AND women can get). and Grain Brain is another book that shows scientific evidence for what I'm saying. I know most people don't 'get' it. But when we don't eat wheat we don't get tired and angry.

But surely if someone speaks to you in a manner you don't like (you think they've snapped), then it's more natural to say 'all right, it's fine, I'm..turning the car round now, no need to be sharp', rather than slamming and smashing and over dramatic car turning round and all that?

It is what makes me think that maybe it is me and somehow I'm speaking in such a horrible way that I do cause him to react so drastically. I just can't understand what though - and why it gets so out of hand so quickly, refusing to go and look at the school with her.

I think Peeky makes a good point. It could well be that you've started to challenge the way he talks to you (and rightly so) rather than being submissive for a quiet life and this is the result; nasty aggressive outbursts.

Does he behave like this with other family, friends, at work? If it's a very recent dramatic change in behaviour perhaps he needs to see a doctor. Of course he'll have to take responsibility for his foul attitude and stop blaming you in order to address this like an adult.

It's not you Rebecca.

No it's not you, as I said above. It may be too late for your marriage now but the wheat thing is definitely worth looking at IMO and E.

peekyboo I would say that through the years I've always been the more assertive one and generally have made the decisions.

Conversely when we have argued it's always been me who apologises - I'm more likely to lose my temper but once it's done it's done and I don't sulk. He does sulk and always has, but he (in the past) rarely lost his temper so it was never a huge issue like it is now.

I genuinely don't know what's changed to such an extreme extent except that maybe I do talk to him in such a horrible way that I am causing it without realising.

Previously I would always have said he was a gentle, kind man, a peacemaker even. Of course not perfect but someone you could trust and respect. I was always so happy that it was he and I going home together, you know when you look at your partner and just share a look and it makes you all happy. Like that.

We went out on Friday with friends and all seemed OK, on Saturday a nice day together doing things around the house. On Sunday in the morning we all went for a bike ride and to get some shopping in - the fucking hot cross buns and lamb. By Sunday evening he's told me it's all over. By Monday evening he's moved out.

Rather unfortunately he doesn't really eat anything with wheat in a great deal - the buns were burnt so he hadn't had any of them when it all happened!

ILostItInTheEarlyNineties thank you - everything you've said has made really good sense

The problem is that it is in almost everything nowadays (we check the ingredients all the time!) even marmite has it! Does he get very tired even when he's slept? That's another symptom.

So are you saying that previously to these incidents within the last year he was peaceful, never lost his temper, and if anything you would be the one to lose it and shout? And you're also saying that for most of your relationship you have essentially been the dominant one?

ppeatfruit I'll look into it - thank you!

BonsaiBear I guess so, pretty much. Of course he did get annoyed about things - but annoyed not angry and not with all this aggression.

But it's been a fairly peaceable relationship overall, just normal really.

Dollars to doughnuts he's having an affair

Does he have a new hobby, maybe started going to the gym?

Thank you for having an open mind rebecca There are many who can't even contemplate that the 'blind rage' they and or their family suffer from can be caused by such a simple everyday thing we eat !!

Also as we get older we are more affected, in all ways, by what we eat and drink.