Seems minor, but I have had enough of it

[Nuffaluff]

I am fed up of an issue in my marriage to the point that I feel if this doesn't get sorted, I won't be able to stick it out long term. I wonder if any of you have experience of this?
Background - I'm 40, he's 41 -together for 20 years, married for 13 years. Two kids 7 and 3. We both work, him full time and me part time as a teacher.

It sounds so minor, when I write it down, but it's just that he says mean things and then denies having done so.
Tonight is a typical example.
Just got through the door at 8.45 after being at work for 13 hours with one five minute break (full day's teaching plus parents evening). DH has the ready meal in the oven. He never cooks normally.
I go up to get changed quickly and chat to DS 1 who is still awake. He gets upset about something due to a minor misunderstanding and starts acting up ( he can be quite highly strung at times).
DH tells me to come down for my dinner. I say, yes, I'm just seeing to DS, he's upset. DH tells me to leave him and come down now, or it'll burn. Said in a bossy, rude manner but I let it go and come down.
Sitting talking about minor incident with DS to DH. I say, I don't like to see him upset, that's why I wanted to sort him out. DH says, yeah all right. Said in a rude, dismissive way as if to actually mean 'please shut up you idiot'.
OK, so far so typical? Honestly not sure. I don't like this bickering, we do it too much.
The thing that really bothers me though is that when I say 'please don't speak to me like that, I don't like it', he immediately denies having said anything that I could possibly be upset about. He says this with such complete conviction and suggests that I am a crazy woman. When I repeat back to him what he has just said, he says I'm making it up!
He is level headed generally, reliable and a good partner in many ways, but he always does THIS. He seems to think I'm irrational and I really am not. I just want to be treated with respect, like he does everyone else in his life.
As I said in the title, it seems minor, but it bothers me a lot. I know it is minor compared to what a lot of women have going on, but really, I have had enough of it after 20 years.
Any advice? How can I deal with this?
Please don't tell me YABU, because I haven't put this in AIBU.

Record him on a phone if safe to do so.

Play it back.

Book counselling appointment.

"Now he’s gone out for a walk because he’s upset with me and wants to get away from me." That is a rather mean thing to do. I can see it both ways. He may think he is being good, going and calming down but actually it looks like a control trick. If he is gone for a long time then it kind of looks like "Be nice to me or I will go out and be gone a long time."
My dh and i have been together 20 years. He is sometimes bloody annoying. We find arguing difficult because he can't always say how he feels and despite my saying Id rather know what is going on, he just thinks it is easier not to say!

However, I love him and most of the time these little annoyances do not grate on me.

So the fact this is bothering you so much means you do need to look into it and get help.

Good luck.

Thank you Annie Anoni , but it’s not as straightforward as many a times in life [ sad]

OP if you feel he is abusive then I don't know that counselling would work. Maybe he needs some to work out why he is unhappy.

"I think perhaps he just doesn’t really like me much anymore and has got used to speaking to me like that. When he claims he didn’t say the hurtful thing it could be because he doesn’t think I’m worth considering in how he speaks to me."

This could be how he sees it. Or he know he is being rude and just doesn't care

"But he does keep accusing me of lying and earlier, when I was talking to him about it, he was laughing at me in a ‘point scorey’ Kind of way. I kept calm, but I was upset, crying a bit and he just doesn’t show that he cares." Sorry it sounds awful.

"If any of you are rowing with your partner and you get obviously upset, do they care?"

My dh does care but he does find showing it very hard. He is not naturally touchy feelie and I am very touchy feelie.

We have been together a long while and it has got better. But I have really had to show him what i expect! I am upset, I expect a hug, or a kiss or an arm around my shoulder etc.

"My DH ignores it and I am reduced to begging for affection. I find that humiliating and very upsetting." I don't blame you.

"I’ve just got no idea what’s normal or ‘good enough’."

I would say that some men find it difficult to deal with emotions (some women too, but less so in my experience.)

However, if you married someone from a different culture you would expect them to try your food, maybe learn your language etc and vice versa. You would not expect them to just say, well this is how we do things in my culture! And nothing from our culture.

So if you express things differently, he needs to know you will interpret things in a certain way. If he loves you and wants to make things work he will be willing to put in the effort. My dh and I have had some counselling when things were rough over fertility issues. I know it was not his favourite thing to do, but he did it to make things work better for us.

Your dh needs to show you he understands your concerns. By saying you are gaslighting yourself he is basically saying 'I don't care if you feel upset, as long as you do not try to pin it on me!'

I think you need to spread your wings a bit.

Your Ds sounds like he’s picking up the total disharmony and discord.

Tbh I couldn’t live with emotional abuse like that. Persistent hostility and disrespect would make me kick him out.

I think you’d be better off on your own without the second guessing and walking round on eggshells.

And No marriage isn’t supposed to be hard work, it’s supposed to take some work, yes, but both people need to put that in joyfully.

What you have isn’t a marriage, it’s a life sentence of misery.
I’d give him his marching orders. Get financials in place first.

This sounds totally crap.
I would get small cameras set up around the house.
He can't deny it when he sees and hears it all.
Please consider your future here OP.
And your mental health.

He sounds very difficult to live with, he isn't kind or respectful and he's mean to you
Don't put up with it for 10 more years!

I think it's important that you do something about it - counselling would be a good start if you find one you both feel comfortable with. He will find it difficult to behave like that in front of someone else and hopefully he will be encouraged to really hear what you are saying. If he doesn't care enough to at least do this, you have your answer. Don't waste years waiting round for things to change.

I don't know if it's normal, but my husband and I rarely argue these days, we've been together about the same time as you (but our kids are teenagers) and we've sorted out most of the niggles. We still like each other as well as love each other. I think you deserve better.

^^ this.

no, marriage isn't supposed to be HARD work.
It does require work, but the sort of work where you actually take time for each other, even if you are tired you are thoughtful of the words you use, you don't take each other for granted. With someone you love/like that is not hard work, but it does require some effort.

The more of your posts I read, there more disturbing it is. Go back and re-read. You are blaming yourself for his behaviour, and excusing his behaviour "he doesn't like me any more" does not mean he can then be rude! And you should not have to live with this.

He has stomped off for a walk because you said you were unhappy. In a normal relationship, that is the beginning of trying to understand each other and work it out.

Please try counselling, if you are working with a thrid party, it is much easier to hear and take on board what is being said.

Stop minimising his behaviour for starters, he's mean and contemptuous towards you and in front of your son, your son will see this as a normal way to speak to a woman, it's not!

Stop putting up with it, it shouldn't be happening at all, he sounds draining, immature and nasty.

Hi Nuffaluff

The only acceptable level of abuse within a relationship is NONE.

What do you get out of this relationship now, what is the payoff here for you personally?. What needs of yours are being met here by him?.

Re your comment:-
"I’ve got a sneaking suspicion that I’ll end up hanging around for another ten years until the kids are nearly grown up and then we’ll end up separating".

Do not do this; doing that will simply teach your children further damaging lessons about relationships and staying for them as well rarely if ever works out well. They won't thank you either for staying with him and could well accuse you of putting him before them. If you want to separate ultimately then do so when the children are younger so in their early years rather than when they are late teens. They will certainly know by then that their parents marriage is awful and wonder why you are still together at all.

Relationships should not be such hard work honestly and the fact that he is all sweetness and light around everyone else other than you is textbook abuser behaviour.

Do NOT enter joint counselling with this man; if you have counselling go to the sessions on your own. You need to talk freely and he will never give you that opportunity.

It actually sounds like he doesn't like you very much. How can he not know he is being rude? Surely he doesn't use that tone at work. Just because he says he wasn't being rude doesn't mean he knows he wasn't. He's an adult, he is aware of his tone. He's a bully.

Relationships are not supposed to be hard work, that is a big fat myth. Yes, you should work at your relationship but that is not the same thing at all.

Nobody should live their life in fear of angering their partner, or skirting round issues that might upset him.

Nobody should 'stay together for the children', or because of your marriage vows. If your husband treats you badly, he has broken the vows. Children are much much happier being brought up by parents who live apart than in an atmosphere of fear and loathing.

Working hard at a relationship is not the same as a relationship being 'hard work'.

Please don't put up with this for another 10 years.

The nice guy that you refer to OP is the one who is interacting with others....putting on a front to others as this great person and he actually does believe he is a great person...when really he is showing his true self to you and you are bearing the brunt of all this man's real nastiness.

He's controlling, manipulative and passive aggressive towards you and makes out to the world he's a good guy!

You are an intelligent, hard working, professional woman but the moment you step into your home you are made to feel worthless by him and you doubt yourself because your self esteem is so low with his constant putdowns.

It's soul destroying and IME the more you try and reason and plead with them the worse their behaviour.
You will regret staying with him another 10years.
Counselling?...well, abusive men usually do not attend or if they do the blame is put on you.

"Why does he do that" ...by Lundy Bancroft is a good book to read.

The only thing I could think of to do would be to say 'why would you say that?' to him every time he tries to start picking holes in your behaviour.

Maybe making him explain himself might point out to him what he's doing and how often he's doing it?

Although it does sound like he just doesn't really care what you think and he's started seeing you as a 'thing' rather than a person.

That’s not minor, at all. That is mental abuse. You say you were expecting a different answer, but it is what it it. He’s not lovely, he’s just showing the rest of the world a facade. You are the one he’s supposed to love (not perfect and all). I have indeed been in this exact type of relationship, married to him and with two children. Everything that he did wrong (like quitting jobs due to his temper) was my fault. Not trying to find a new job? Also my fault. So many other unreasonable actions. I divorced him, as I knew he would not change and that’s not the way I want my sons to treat others, or be treated themselves. 10 years later, he’s still the same mess.

Of course you fight, all people do in all relationship types, and with his treatment of you, of course it’s a lot. You said yourself you put up with things just to avoid more arguing. That’s no way to be in life. Your children are seeing this and may be in danger of being in the same type of relationship.

You are upset with his treatment of you and recognize it’s wrong, but then you make excuses for it my saying, “he’s lovely... to everyone else.”

He can’t even admit he’s said the things he does. How do you expect him to change for the better?

Don’t stay for the next 10 years putting up with this. All you’ll be doing is teaching your children that this is how marriage is...

That's exactly the reason I finally left my marriage. Afterwards (and I'm not saying this is the case for you) I found that he'd been having a long-term affair and I was the fly in the ointment.

Your DH sounds like a classic 'street angel, house devil'.

Are things better tonight Nuffaluff?

Nuffaluff I hung around for another nearly ten years. Lots of control around food & mealtimes, lots of gaslighting, all sorts of stuff went on - perfectly charming at first & whenever out of the home though.

Finally got out after 27 years of marriage & feel absolutely great.

No regrets about not leaving sooner - that way madness lies. I had my reasons for hanging on in there.

I’ve experienced this OP. I think the hard thing is that when you are on the receiving end - it seems to be the unspoken criticism in the tone of voice or the unsympathetic response that makes you want to defend yourself - explain yourself etc. In fact - it’s the disrespect, the lack of kindness and the hostility that you are picking up on - and it’s upsetting - so it’s really difficult to respond rationally when you are in the moment. And yes - there is a degree of gaslighting to this - by quoting what they said and not the tone of disrespect and unkindness that it’s said with.
Things did change - once I’d managed to call out the lack of respect. Just make it clear that it’s not acceptable, and that it needs to be addressed by him - because it’s absolutely not your fault. And making it a deal breaker is not at all unreasonable.