Thoughts on dealing with limiting beliefs shared or imposed by family?

[WyclefJohn]

I've very recently realised that in my family, we share a number of limiting beliefs. They're not beliefs that have been imposed by my parents, who I love very much, but are shared. They're often unspoken, and there is an element of social class mixed in. In my case, I just realise there were so many things people like us didn't do. These include travel, aim for certain professions, or take part in sports like skiing.

I was fortunate enough to go away to university, and my horizons have been massively broadened, but I have this nagging feeling, that I don't belong.

My parents have always supported me, and in many ways, they have limited themselves, me, and my brother implicitly. It's hard to put on paper, or on screen, and I love them so much, but it is something that has affected me, my brother, and my parents. There is a sense that we should always go for the safe option. It's just something I've been thinking about, wanted to get down, and share.

For me, I feel as if it's more subtle than some of the cases mentioned. It wasn't always so much as my parents saying to me explicitly that "flying isn't for the likes of us" and calling me arrogant if I did it. But there are just a range of things I think are beyond our grasp, and contributes to a sense of insecurity at times.

Yes, I have met people like this, my parents we keen for us to do as much as possible, because there were many things they were unable to do due to work and not enough money.

One of the sad things I experienced was an ex’s mum saying ‘we could not buy a house because people would know we were ‘in debt’!

But there are just a range of things I think are beyond our grasp, and contributes to a sense of insecurity at times

It about both cultural capital and actual capital. My children know about things that they might do, because we have cultural capital. But they also know that they can try them out risk-free, because we have actual capital.

There's a very interesting PhD in the reasons why the middle classes overtly (and there is, indeed, an air of "showing off" to this) seek out unfamiliar and new food, while a hallmark of what we're talking about is a conservatism around diet. I guess is it includes a fear of embarrassment (what if I eat the wrong bits of the artichoke?), a fear of waste (what if I order the oysters and don't like them?), a fear of loss of solidarity (what if I order the rare steak, like it, but no-one else does?) and so on. Whereas people with the money and the social and cultural capital can just do what they want and put it down to experience if they don't like it.

My in-laws spent their whole adult lives in mortal fear that they might find themselves in a situation where they were offered food they didn't know.

My mum and dad Luke very rarely venture out to eat out, and even then, they would choose Wetherspoons.

I remember for their 40th wedding anniversary choosing a restaurant (nothing too fancy). We got there and they refused to eat there, so we went to a steak and chips place instead.

The cultural capital thing that Cuboidal talks about is really relevant and something that is a huge stumbling block for many people who would otherwise do very well in life - particularly people from different ethnic backgrounds who are 'locked out' of situations where they learn how things are done - I think people majorly underestimate the effect that not knowing the schema (ie the script) for situation has on a person. If you go to a private school, a large part of the advantage that gives you in life is that you are taught how to speak BigWig, you are given the scripts you need to behave in ways that will bring you success regardless of how intelligent you actually are. It is the main reason utter turdbrains like Cameron and Johnson get into government.

is that you are taught how to speak BigWig

What to drink with what, what to wear when...

This is a very interesting discussion. I think it's particularly British as class is still so deeply embedded in our culture. As an extension of this line of thought I would argue that there are many people who regard the homeless and those living in poverty as 'scroungers,' not realising how very fortunate they themselves have been to be in a position of knowing and believing that there is choice. Again back to cultural capital.
Sadly it is true to say that there are still many in our society who still do look down on others. So it is still a very real issue, although obvs sad that so many people are hampered by the fear of being caught out.

I think it's particularly British as class is still so deeply embedded in our culture.

It's also an example of the outsourcing of oppression. The upper classes don't need to expend the effort to keep the working classes in their "place", when the working classes are so enthusiastic about doing it for themselves.

I think there's also an element of people believing that successful people are somehow special or different and therefore expecting to be like that is 'getting above yourself.' I'm from Ireland and class isn't such a strong factor there but there is the idea of 'getting notions,' ie thinking you're better than you are. That's not so much about class as it is about your immediate family - you can be successful but only within the sphere of what your family accepts. Extravagance (whatever that means to your family - it could be a dishwasher, it could be high heeled shoes) is kept in check either by open criticism and mocking or by a sort of 'freezing out' of the person who doesn't fit. It's a very powerful mechanism for maintaining social norms and it's quite different to the UK mechanisms I think in the way it's so family-specific.

'It's also an example of the outsourcing of oppression. The upper classes don't need to expend the effort to keep the working classes in their "place", when the working classes are so enthusiastic about doing it for themselves.'

This is equally true when it comes to the oppression of women.

Keeping the people you love 'at your level' can of course also be a sort of unhealthy expression of love and a fear that if the person gets 'better' than you that they will no longer love you or want to be around you. Parents can often see their children doing things differently as a criticism of how they did things and can subtly and unintentionally prevent their children from 'bettering' themselves.

This is equally true when it comes to the oppression of women.

And ethnic minorities. In general terms, privilege is sustained in large part because the downtrodden are so busy dragging each other down that the privileged barely need to get out of bed. The reasons for that, and the fault, are topics of debate, and rightly so. But plenty of disadvantaged groups have dominant cultural forces which are internally generated and utterly destructive. I believe theorists talk about "internalised oppression".

I agree, though I'm wary of laying any sort of 'blame' for that at the doorstep of oppressed people because that behaviour can often be a consequence of feeling disempowered and frustrated. Expecting people to not only fight oppression in a system that is stacked against them but to do it in such a way that is more ethical and sensible than the behaviour of their oppressors is far too much to expect IMO.

I'm not sure if this is going to be helpful....but just in case it is, I will post it.

My family very much came from the school of keeping up with the Joneses, satisfying social conventions, doing a steady job and doing it till as late as possible - early retirement being for the lazy etc etc. And they love holidays.

I don't care about the Joneses or social conventions and we came up against this quite early as I simply refused to attend some of their horrible social things from when I was a teen. They would be very angry but you can't drag a teen out.

then when I hit the workplace I knew I'd want to retire as early as humanly possible so worked in the appropriate jobs for that, never over extend myself in terms of money and I hate going away so I don't do it.

Every time they have complained or told me I'm weird - from about age 15 to 25 - I just shrug and tell them it's my life. Rinse and repeat.

I wouldn't say they've accepted it - I know they grumble about certain things even now - but they learned to stop harping on about it because I am who I am and I will never care what the Joneses think.

They did become more understanding of certain things after I was diagnosed with anxiety and depression in my 30s - and to be frank getting older themselves made them realise a bit more about people living as they choose, as long as it doesn't harm others.

They will still never get over my plan to retire early - as far as they are concerned you should work till you drop or you are a useless member of society - but I dunno, I think the thing is, never engage in those conversations. Even if it means seeing less of them.

Parents can often see their children doing things differently as a criticism of how they did things and can subtly and unintentionally prevent their children from 'bettering' themselves.

I think this describes my in-laws perfectly. They genuinely love DH unconditionally and want the best for him but their idea if what is the best for him is very much linked to what they have done and what they know. When we moved away from the town that he (and they) grew up in (to follow my career) they were totally thrown. Their family and friends lived all their lives in the same small town and they can't comprehend why or how anyone would do anything different. Similarly when DH decided to get a degree and train for a professional career they made it clear that they felt he was implying that the jobs they had etc were not good enough.

In their case there is also an element of fear that if they/we try anything different they might fail or something else will go wrong (whether this is trying to get qualifications, travelling or eating new food). Their first reaction when he told them he had an interview for professional training was 'what if you're not clever enough'.

Even now that he has trained and been successful for a while I get the impression that they think it's only a matter of time before he's 'found out' as the wrong type of person. Every time we visit they tell us about openings they've heard of for pretty unskilled jobs nearby and offer to have a word with a friend to see if they can get details for us. I think this comes from a desire to have DH in a place and a job that they understand so that they feel he's safer.

There is also the danger of looking down on people because they seemingly have different ambitions and priorities.

When you have very little, is it better to fly off on holiday, jetsetting away if you can to or save the money and get your child to uni, give them a better life and hide the poverty fact by saying "flying is not for us".

I'm not convinced that this is massively about class. There were older generations in my family who were/are undoubtedly working class but who embraced foreign travel on the occasions it was affordable to them.

I suspect it is a lot more about personality, and in particular I suspect your parents would score very lowly on a trait known as openness to experience. Of course, personality is partially shaped by our upbringing so your parents class background will have influenced that, but I think we have to be careful not to just generically attribute particular traits to a class as whole.

I'm wary of laying any sort of 'blame' for that at the doorstep of oppressed people

I wasn't and don't.

On the other hand, there is a tendency from the well-intentioned to deny oppressed groups moral agency, implying that there is no element of choice whatsoever. Clearly, aspects of some cultural groups contribute to their lack of power. On the other hand, there is an element of individual and collective choice, too. As with most matters of entrench advantage and disadvantage, "it's complicated".

When you have very little, is it better to fly off on holiday, jetsetting away if you can to or save the money and get your child to uni, give them a better life and hide the poverty fact by saying "flying is not for us".

I'd be willing to bet the price of a round of drinks that the people who say "flying isn't for the likes of us" don't see it as an alternative to their children going to aspirational universities. Quite the opposite, in fact: people who don't want to fly literally also don't want their children to fly metaphorically.

My late father decided, based on the fact that I was bright and charismatic as a child, that I should be sent to hoity toity schools, taught to play chess, paint, etc. from preschool age. I was the first to go to university. All that stuff.

My DF was from a shabby, undereducated but slightly posh farming family, whereas my DM was one of the terrified provincial poor (rural, dependent on but resentful of landowner, hard drinking, battering the wife and children sort of family) who had been thrown out after O-Levels based on the idea that she'd been educated (unlike her DM who'd left school at age 8) so now she could fuck off and take care of herself.

She was and is absolutely ruled by fear of loss of face, abandonment, humiliation, etc. The mix of a fancily educated daughter with a terrified, barely educated mother was very difficult for both of us and continues to be a wall between us tbh. I understand her intellectually, although she frustrates me a lot - she has flashes of being able to comprehend why I would (for example) leave a husband who wasn't hitting me. But mostly she gossips anxiously to the rest of her family about how I think I'm better than everyone else, pride comes before a fall and so on.

My broader family assume I'm an awful snob. I can remember them tutting at each other not to offer Oik any orange squash as she wouldn't drink anything but fresh orange. I bloody love squash! But Oik has ideas above her station, etc.

Jumping classes (which is basically what I did, based on my DF laying the groundwork from well before I could have a hand in it) is very hard and isolating. I cannot help or reverse the ideas that were inculcated in me - they've formed part of my identity, I'm afraid I do love to ski and eat funny things in forrin countries! Doesn't mean I don't also love a chip butty and cheap cider, but for some folk, you're either in or out and that's the end of it.

My DC will feel the chill from my family in time. It's heartbreaking but I hope they'll find their own chosen family to make up for it.

I am absolutely flummoxed by people who think there's only one way to do things.

which presumably means those people would be flummoxed by me!

but seriously, I don't get it.

when I bought my first home, one of the huge pros, in my book, was that it didn't need anything doing to it. My parents walked in and said "well you will have to redecorate this completely, how old is this paint and look how shabby the carpet is."

This when I was lucky to be in my home one day a week anyway!

I am absolutely flummoxed by people who think there's only one way to do things

me too!

My sister had a go at mum for not putting out much recycling.

My mum had a go at my sister for having so much recycling to put out.

Both had a point.

I kind of get this but I'm sure with my own family it was 99 percent to do with money . We had a handful of holidays abroad throughout my whole childhood were my parents saved for 2-3 years bits and bobs of money to afford them. We didn't have anything flashy etc , a dish washer would certainly have being a no no !! Conservatories were also considered flashy and a waste of garden space 😂

Now there older and considerably better off they are abroad twice a year at least . Expensive car . Always out socialising / nice meals etc . Good on them ! That definetley shows to me it was money though stopping them rather than a sense of it not being who they were

This thread is fascinating and timely considering DH and I were just having this discussion last night. We have a very ambitious DD, and we were wondering if we are holding her back without meaning to. Neither of DH's parents went to uni - he was the first - and he was talking about how it never occurred to him to leave his hometown and go to a different uni. Just GOING to uni was enough.

Anyway. Interesting thread.

One thing I don't understand, though, is why so many English people seem to care what other people think. Why does it matter?

ItLooks, historically you could say that it's related to the remnants of the feudal system and the Poor Law. As long as you lived in the parish you were born in and stayed in your place, you might be miserably poor and die of the plague but you were respected and had a standing based on your own life, also your family's life and moral choices, and the community knew that it needed to look after you - you had a right to outdoor relief from your own community. You can see the strain in Jane Austen's novels, when for example the Elliot family choose to move to the 'littleness of a town' and keep having fancy stuff, instead of staying in their own place and cutting their expenditure. Hence the end of the Poor Law and the institution of workhouses where couples and families were split up.