Angry - need advice for a calm conversation

[LadyRoughDiamond]

Sorry if this is a bit long, it's hard to get everything down but I'm v frustrated and need to let it all out!
I became a SAHM when DS2 was born and soon after, we left London for the countryside. My DH can work pretty much anywhere (think in-demand profession) and as my career was v London-centric, the long-term plan was for me to retrain when the children were old enough. Fast-forward three years and we've settled into our new homeand DH is settled into his new career - albeit a very stressful one with long hours. DS1 is 7 and DS2 is 3 and so ready for nursery etc. I've just been accepted onto the training course I wanted (1 year) and am all set to go back to work in Sept.
The issue is, first of all DS stared saying how difficult it would be with me going back to work. I felt bloody guilty but stuck with it, pointing out that it would be worth it in the long term. Then, as I passed the necessary assessments and interview, he seemed very subdued and unenthusiastic - barely a congratulations. I need to go to a few inductions etc over the next few months and he's not happy about having to look after DS2 on the days that these aren't covered by nursery (DS2 to go f/time in Sept). Finally, last night, he started to moan about money. I'll be paid a very small training salary but this is just enough to cover wrap around care for DS1 and nursery for DS2. He now wants me to find money for a cleaner because this will help cover what I'm not doing. I suggested he look after DS2 on his day off (he works 4 days p/wk) to save me some money but apparently he needs that day to unwind and exercise. Basically, the message I'm getting is 'go back to work, but don't let it affect me'.
I appreciate it's going to be a change for everyone, but financially we're pretty fortunate. He has a v good salary but he is a bit tight and "gives" me monthly money for food, petrol, the boys etc. I have no idea what he does with his disposable income - it's substantial but he's not very good with money. That needs addressing - joint account is needed, I know.
I'm not backing down. I need financial independence and a life outside the home. I've given my family everything over the last few years and want something for myself. SO, I'm going to speak to him about all of this tonight. Can anyone give me some advice, things to raise, ways to say how I'm feeling without it descending into a row? He has a tendency to feel "picked on" and play the victim if I criticise.

DH, I'm not feeling supported by you. I've raised our children while your career has progressed, and now I want to forge my own identity, which was what we agreed on previously.
In order for our family to continue happily, we should be working as a team. Sharing responsibilities, finances, workload etc. How do you plan to contribute?

Think about what you want him to hear (add opposed to what you want to say), think about how best to express that so he hears it and then practise till you are comfortable saying it. Come at it from his angle, think of all the contra arguments he might make, think about how you might counter those and practise that till it's fluent too. And then use a negotiating model I work with. Acknowledge, educate, reason, offer. Listen to what he says in opposition and acknowledge it: i hear what you're saying and i understand why you feel like that... give him your counter argument which is thought out, considered and robust. Remind him of the reason why you want to do it and then offer some form of compromise. If having a cleaner is so important to him then find a way to make that happen? You'll know better than i do what compromise will make him happy while leaving you with the essentials you want, the chance to retrain and work again.

Good luck!

There's this thing called compassionate listening. It means (as far as I understand it), letting someone talk and express themselves while the listener listens. The listener should not interrupt, judge, defend, pick holes. S/he should just listen. With compassion. The next day or week, the listener may themselves wish to express and respond, but should happen again in a period of clam where the other now just listens. Communication branches out into a sort of mutual appreciation.

I haven't strictly used this technique, but we do try and give space for the other to speak. We remind each other to express our wishes, rather than seek to criticise (phrases like 'I need more time out of the house. It grinds me down being alone all day with the baby' instead of saying 'You make me feel guilty every time I leave the house alone.'). We dedicate a time period for this - usually when the kids are at school or asleep, nothing on TV etc. We try and appreciate what the other feels/thinks even though we may not agree with what they're saying (I want you to appreciate the work I do/I don't feel appreciated - that's OH to me. I didn't agree , but his felt experience was true to him.).

I suggest you agree with your OH about when and how you want the discussion to be framed. Something like "when we talk, it often ends in rows, but it's important to me that we can have an open, honest conversation about x. When is a good time to talk? Let's try and not accuse each other because we both end up getting upset and nothing gets decided."

Write it down, point by point and let him read it.

There is no way I'd be able to get through everything youve written and keep my cool.

You are doing the right thing by staying strong. Please don't back down.

By telling you you need to find money for a cleaner he is essentially saying this is what he thinks you're there for. He doesnt see you as an equal.

Perhaps point out how much a cleaner would have been over the last few years if you hadnt been so willling to sacrifice everything for the family.

It might be worth pointing out that to keep you on a budget and not letting you have money of your own to spend while he has plenty could be financially abusive.

Lastly, I'd want to tell him that it's a dealbreaker. I wouldnt remain in a relationship that was so unequal and where I was just viewed as the cleaner. Somebody who can do the jobs he doesnt want to do. Like look after his own children .

A day to unwind? FFS. Angry on your behalf OP

Can you write it all down first so it’s crystal clear in your mind. I would struggle not get angry in this situation, but then he wins. Because you’re being irrational.
Maybe even send it to him first, and say I want us to think about this and our future for it to work for everyone in our family.

Honestly. He doesn’t half sound like an utter dick head. But that’s an aside

And I must admit that I am genuinely shocked that your husband thinks that you should be bearing all the cost and he doesn’t want you to work because he will lose his cleaner/babysitter
Maybe point out how much he would be paying in maintenance if you split up. Because I’m sure it will be a fuck load more than he gives you now.

My first marriage ended in divorce because of this kind of scenario OP. Despite wanting me 'earning' and I too retrained when children were small, he then made it feel like he was 'doing me a favour' by looking after the children at times and stopping him going to football/the pub/ etc as it involved shifts.(nursing)

I would calmly explain that for longer term security and your own independence, it does need you not to be a stay at home mum, however it does need him to pull his weight in bringing up a family and yes that includes childcare. They are 'both' your children, not just yours for the heavy lifting and him to just have the fun bits. If he wants the future income and it not all being on him , then he has to accept thats the case. I would however if I was you get a better handle on his income and what he is doing with it. It is at the end of the day meant to be family income, not just his to 'gift you' bits to keep things running.

Lady

re your comment:-
"He has a v good salary but he is a bit tight and "gives" me monthly money for food, petrol, the boys etc. I have no idea what he does with his disposable income - it's substantial but he's not very good with money. That needs addressing - joint account is needed, I know."

Talking to him tonight may well not get you anywhere because he will play the victim again when infact its you and your children who are on the receiving end of his control. Presumably you have raised the matter of having a joint account before now, if so what has been his response?.

Do you have any say whatsoever with regards to money and finances?.

Some men use money as a means of control and I think this is what is happening here re money. He does not want to share "his" money and giving you a monthly allowance is demeaning to you as well. That along with him trying to prevent you going back to work and or putting up obstacles is another red flag here.

I would give Womens Aid a call on 0808 2000 247 and talk this through with them.

Gazelda has put it perfectly... doesn't sound like much of a partnership or that he respects your happiness.. as long as he is ok and rested !!

WRite it all down, then arrange a meeting where you ask him to come back with his solution to it all. At the same time, get a big spreadsheet and look at the finances - how much do you need to run the house and how can you make Best use of what’s left over? Stay calm, leave gaps and let him fill them with suggestions.

Thank you ladies, there's some really good advice here and I'll be speaking to him tonight. I don't feel financially 'abused', but I don't like feeling like a child with pocket money either. We make joint financial decisions, but I think there are just too many grey areas in the finances. There's absolutely no good reason for me not to go back to work, and so many for me to do this.
He's not a bad person, he's just become a bit self-centred over the last few years. That's partly my fault as I should have kicked back sooner rather than be his life-facilitator. I'll keep you updated.

Financial abuse is insidious in its onset, this is how it creeps up on people, mainly women.

He becoming more self centered is not good at all, he likely feels entitled to act as he has done and feels he has done nothing wrong here. I maintain there are some red flags here re controlling behaviours and giving you an allowance is itself demeaning. I also do not like the ways he plays the victim and the fact he wants you to pay for a cleaner out of your own wage to facilitate him further.

BTW what happens if you needed more money than what's been given to you in this allowance?.

At the very least I would insist that a joint account is set up asap, he stops handing you an allowance and that he does not put any barriers up into you returning to work. His responses to your very reasonable requests re more financial independence here will be telling.

He now wants me to find money for a cleaner
This is the bit that jumped out to me.
Why do YOU have to find the money?
You don't have any and you know nothing about the overall financial situation you are in as a family.
If HE doesn't want to pull his weight then HE has to find the money and the cleaner!

Dear God how dare he?! you have to find money for a cleaner?! As he works a four day week he can have DC that day and get the cleaning done, clearly that’s what he used to expect of you.

‘His’ disposable income is family money and should be accounted for and equally spent.

Just how does he get to that place in his head where he is lord and master and you are a secondary citizen.

It isnt your fault at all, he should be grateful but instead has made it clear he now sees your work around the house as an entitlement.

Be careful OP, it might not be financial abuse now but if you were to continue down this path, it could very easily become that.

He's spent the last few.months making you feel guilty for doing something you agreed on years ago. It isn't because you've been such a good life faciliator it's because he doesn't see you as an equal and he doesn't want to be bothered with caring for his children.

He now wants me to find money for a cleaner

Cheeky bastard. Why isn't his salary 'HIS' it should be family money - that's what happens you decide to have children and become a family unit.

He sounds incredibly selfish. And he should be joint parenting the DC.

Sounds like he's realised he's going to have to help out more and doesn't like it, so is projecting it back onto you.

As others have said, write everything down first and go through each point. Enable him to have his point of view but hold your ground.

The 'his' money thing versus family money would be a dealbreaker for me, that is not a man with his family's best interests at heart. That's a man with his own best interests at heart.

Good for you for training and getting a career back. Good luck with the talk!

Lady, I think your situation is actually very common. These power tussles comes into almost all relationships imho. For the DH, life carries on more or less as before marriage and kids. He wants to hold onto that comfort to the point of blocking any doubts. It is selfishness, but it isn't abuse (unless allied with other red flags) and we are, all of us, selfish from time to time. You've given no reason to make me believe you can't talk your way to a better arrangement in your marriage. But you must not let him talk you out of your training.

Hi op,

Your husband sounds like a selfish arse! You gave up your career and moved to raise his children and now he's behaving like a petulant child. Why doesn't he do some cleaning on his day off rather than you pay out for a cleaner? Housework can be good exercise

I think the only way to approach it is to be pretty blunt and straight with him. Tell him that you feel hurt by his lack of enthusiasm and his disregard for your happiness. He probably will pull the "poor me" act if thats what he usually does but the only thing I can recommend is to ignore it. Keep reminding him that you gave up your career to raise his children and the agreement was always that you would retrain once the children were old enough.

What is his feeling towards a joint account? You absolutely need one so that he can see what goes in and out and realises that there is no money for a cleaner!

@AtillatheMeercat good point - if I need more money I have to ask for it or explain what I need it for. He generally pleads poverty and says we're on our limit, but he's been saying that since he was earning £20k a year. It doesn't matter how much he earns, he'll always find a way to spend it.
He gives me £800 a month, but I need to feed the family, pay for anything for the children and me and put petrol in the car (not inconsiderable when you live in the middle or nowhere!) with that.

Why doesn't he pay for the cleaner if he wants one so bad? Or better still, if he thinks money is such an issue, why doesn't HE do the cleaning on his day off if he's that bothered.

And secondly, why is the cost of childcare your sole responsibility? You are in a marriage with two children who are a joint asset. Childcare costs should be a joint cost if both of you are working.

He clearly holds you in a very low pecking order and doesn't value you at all.

These types of men make my blood boil.

I solved this problem. I hold the purse strings, pay all the bills, pay for everything and give him generous amounts every month. if he needs any more for something like car servicing etche just asks but in a way I guess thats easier as the income (we run a business) comes to me.

Why are you so frightened to have a bloody good row with him?
He has you completely under control by playing the victim and playing on your fear of confrontation. That's why he is able to hold all the cards and keep you in the dark about money and what he is doing with it. It is your money aswell and not just his to dole out as he sees fit. He doesn't ask your permission before he spends it so why do you have to explain to him what you need more money for?
He should be supporting you in what you want to achieve not just thinking about how his life will change. He doesn't want it to change because you have made it too bloody good and easy for him.

He is treating you as nothing more than a very lowly paid but full time childminder and cleaner. You are his wife and you need to expect to be treated equally.

He sounds a man child and doesn’t want his cosy nest disturbed.

Good for you for becoming independent, your children won’t always be young and you need to forge a life for yourself and tell him to do the cleaning, cheeky fucker.

I suggested he look after DS2 on his day off (he works 4 days p/wk) to save me some money but apparently he needs that day to unwind and exercise.

So, so many things wrong with that

You need to understand your whole household income and this not being clear is utterly wrong, controlling and verging on abusive.

Whose idea was it to live in the back of beyond?