Can someone give me some bullet points on setting boundaries? My mother! :(

[Oywotchadoin]

I’ve posted about her before under different names but in summary she has narcissistic tendencies. She is very controlling and without doubt thinks she’s right about everything and sees any difference in opinion as a personal slight.

We were NC for over a year but have gradually thawed. And surprise surprise she’s leaping over boundaries like crazy. She does it in such a way that I look like a petty twat if I pull her up yet I feel outmanoeuvred.

I also feel like she deliberately tries to get into competition with me somehow, over my kids and husband. It’s all so subtle though I start to doubt myself and then remember how twisted she can be!

So, quick guide to healthy boundaries please!

It's hard! You will contstantly be going forward and back with them as you will naturally thaw when she seems warm. I would say don't be hard on yourself and when she does do/say something which crosses a boundary just shove it straight back up again. I've no doubt a few people here will tell you to go back to NC, but from experience it can be even harder.

Thankyou. Often I discover the boundary has been stepped over afterwards, so to call her out on it feels confrontational and it’s easier in the moment to leave it. Ugh.

Whenever the boundary is crossed, step back. No contact, not reactions, don't feed the bad behaviour. This is how I manage my dad. I totally freeze out his awful behaviour and reward his more normal behaviour. It's exhausting but keeps me sane.

I'm sorry you're having to do this, but I do have few tips that have worked for me with mine. Some of these might not apply to yours but you'll get the drift.

1. Don't tell her anything unless you want her opinion on it.
2. No moaning about your OH or kids or friends even in jest
3. Dont reveal plans unless they're set in stone and fully sorted
4. No discussing worries or fears, especially financial or health.
5. Keep conversion light, good subjects are weather, TV, food, traffic.

My OH used to tell me to take no notice, yup easier said than done I thought. Until, I discovered that it's not too late to learn to take no notice. I think it's quite common for a child of a narc to pick up on non verbal cues, the tilt of the head, the thinning of the lips, the narrowing of the eyes etc. Once you've seen these things you can't unsee them so I have learned to not look. It's taken time and practice but your confidence will grow when you're not distracted by those ever so subtle signs that have kept you under control since childhood.

Good luck, you'll get there.

Thankyou, both of you. I’ve stepped right back but then asks what’s the matter.

I really need to grow a pair and tackle it. It’s rhings like I was away for the day so she called my husband to ask could she have one of the kids. He agreed and my son came back with a gun and sponge bullets when she knows I don’t like them to have guns. Then if I take it off him I’m the baddie. That sort of thing.

Why did you stop being NC?

Because I suppose I thought it was better for me to move on, with high boundaries in place.

You were wrong.

Going NC with toxic parents is a bit like leaving an abusive partner. They usually reel you back in a few times with the inevitable result before you finally manage to walk away for good. Each time they've learned new ways to make it even worse.

This book might help: www.amazon.co.uk/Sheeps-Clothing-Understanding-Dealing-Manipulative/dp/1935166301?tag=mumsnetforum-21

There's a good phrase suggested in the above book: "As you know..." It gets right to the heart of the matter and can be very effective. I used it recently with a family member and she went quiet. Sadly, the next time I spoke to her she'd thought of something else which painted her as the victim again. Then, it can be helpful to act as the observer. It takes practise but you can just leave their shit with them. I know it's especially hard when it's your mum though.

Boundaries do not work with someone as disordered as your mother. Narcissists see boundaries as things to be ignored and or otherwise trampled on. You cannot tackle this on your own because your mother as the abuser never will cooperate.

It is not possible to have a relationship with someone like this.
You would be far better off protecting yourself and your family from such a person. Self preservation is key; your mother neither has the insight or any capacity to change. Your children also do not need to see their nan keep on disrespecting you and your H as their parents also.

I’ve stepped right back.

Sandandsea “as you know” - tell me more about that! How does that work?
“As you know I’m a vegetarian so I’m confused as to why you bought me pate for Christmas.” That sort of thing?

Attila I waved between agreeing but also thinking but she’s an old lady!

OP, I tend to agree with Attila but it can help to have some techniques up your sleeve too.

I wouldn't say, "...I'm confused..." I think it's too fluffy. "As you know..." is about being very clear - it cuts through the dance where they try to manipulate you and think you don't know they are.

With the pate - "as you know, I'm a vegetarian." Full stop.

Or add "so I'll give it back / to neighbour / dog."

I used a variety of it recently when talking to a family member who keeps being awful to my mum. I spoke in a very straight and direct way, but using a quiet voice (so as not to spook her). I said to her that it (her behaviour) was really wearing thin now... "as I think you know". I wasn't asking and she knew I know that she knows (if that makes sense). She's an older woman too. She's always been very difficult but has got worse in recent years. I'm having to do a lot of detached observing when I'm talking to her.

I'm not sure I agree with Attila (tempting though it is) though I do respect that viewpoint. The thing about going NC is that the narcissism has then won. It's proved you can't cope with it and the narc can forever play victim. I find it far more character building and rewarding to continue to see my dad and just 100% ignore his shit. When he starts on his self pity I don;t respond at all. If it becomes a monologue i interrupt it sharply, either with a relevant question about something entirely practical and unemotional or by walking out of the room or jumping up with a big smile and saying: I just remembered - I must deflea the cat before I forget, etc.
Obviously it's a personal choice, but if walking out would leave you feeling guilty and judged by other family members, and would result in DC never seeing their wider family, there are other options. For starters, I quite enjoy showing DC how to handle narcissistic behaviour fairly and firmly without getting emotionally attached to it. Took me until I was 50 to work out how to do this, when DF finally overstepped the mark and I stopped giving a shit what he thought of me.

Bullet points would be amazing!
I’ve got a few hard won ones. I’d love to get everyone else’s.

• Set a few clear boundaries that really matter to you.
• Expect to police those boundaries constantly because you’re now the government and they’re the smuggler.
• You limit contact when you catch them ‘smuggling’, feel awful, they act kindly...
• Rinse and repeat.

Mine’s old and alone too. She has friends at church but the names are always changing
I also think NC would be too harsh but it’s very hard to hold a line.

Thankyou, this is all very useful stuff.

She does my head in. But I still can’t get straight how much of her behaviour is calculated, and how much is social clumsiness.

Tell you what’s odd though, with literally anyone else on the planet, I’m hard as nails, but she is hugely intimidating and I can feel myself tense up when I see her.

I had this with my mother. CBT worked wonders although it took courage to implement, felt uncomfortable to get low through on and saw some epic tantrums from her. FF 5 years and things are much much better. I still gave to use the techniques but it's really worth trying.

Remember you can't change her behaviour, you can only change your reaction to her behaviour. It really is true.

Yes that’s true. Can you tell me what you mean by epic tantrum? Mine has exploded a couple of times, which is bad enough, but then twists everything ad infinitum.

If called out calmly on bad behaviour:

Sulking,
threatening to leave
Telling me I clearly don't love her
Saying she might as well never visit again
Etc etc
This was just on one occasion when she insisted I wasn't hammering a nail into a wall correctly and snatched the hammer out of my hand to 'do it properly'

She started packing her bags, crying and say she was clearly a terrible person and I didn't want her around.

I told her (for context) that I'd have done that to her, she would r considered it unacceptably rude and that now we were both adults (and mothers) we are on an equal footing and need to talk to each other eith mutual respect.

She didn't like it because I was no longer acting like the child which meant she had to re-evaluate her stance and it caused a massive meltdown because she felt emotionally challenged.

The key is utter calm, conviction and a refusal to be drawn into the drama,

It's taken me 5 years but I love my mum and it's been worth the emotional investment because she's ultimately a good person with shit boundaries

You can’t reason with unreasonable and narcs are unable to operate within boundaries, I was drawn back in by my mother 2 years ago but it didn’t take long for her to prove that nothing has changed, I just had to call time once and for all, hope you negotiate your way through it OP

The key is utter calm, conviction and a refusal to be drawn into the drama

^^ This is so true.

• Set a few clear boundaries that really matter to you.
• Expect to police those boundaries constantly because you’re now the government and they’re the smuggler.

^^ Love this!

I would also add that narcs really really care how they look to others. I have another narc family member (got a few in my family!) who was a problem to me for many years. She has much reduced contact and is more conscious of her behaviour since I threatened to report her for bullying. This is just an example but it makes the point.

Noting all of this! Thankyou!