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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Sad about the present, scared for the future. Not a great start to 2018...

50 replies

Ennirem · 01/01/2018 04:01

I've been with my partner for coming up 10 years, living together for 9, we have a baby daughter who's nearly one (OH and I both 33). And I feel like I need to end it but I just can't imagine what my life and my daughter's life looks like afterwards Sad

We have always had s difficult relationship for various reasons, it's been hard to apportion blame - we were both young and a bit damaged. But there was a lot of love and a lot of good times too. I felt like we were in a very good place before we had our baby.

However, when I look at our relationship in the round, I realise it is potentially borderline abusive. Is it possible for someone to be unintentionally abusive? I really don't think he's a bad man at all; but I look at who I was when we started out and who I am now and i can't believe we got here from there. And the uncomfortable truth is I have changed incrementally from a passionate, interesting, outgoing person who was often impulsive and spontaneous and had an active social life to someone who is stunted, has no conversation, whose social life barely changed when I had a baby as I had grown so isolated, and who lives their life according to a rigid routine set by someone else according to their desire for control. In scared to deviate from it to the smallest degree, to the point I wear clothes I think are dirty so I don't create too much washing and upset the laundry schedule, I never deviate from the pre planned weekly menu even if I just fancy something different on the day, he shopping always has to be done on the same day every week to the point I'll turn down meeting up with friends if it comes up on that day, I spend my life nervous wondering what I'll do or what will happen to throw out the schedule and provoke huge stress, sulking or anger on my partner's part.

I just don't understand how or why I allowed this to happen. My partner when we first got together was very insecure. I was only how second relationship, whereas I had more previous partners and sexual experience. I had also travelled independently and had close friends I liked to see without him, and was social at work so liked to do drinks with colleagues etc. It emerged in dribs and drabs that all these things bothered him and caused problems. Im going to give some examples below as I'm worried I just don't know my own mind any more or what is my fault and what is just unreasonable...

Our first row blew up out of nowhere really early on in the relationship (we'd been friends for years before and never argued) when I was merrily chatting away about something that has happened to me when I was travelling and he got angry because I was"going on about it" and it made him feel inadequate. I felt so embarrassed and apologetic at the time. But I couldn't apologise enough to stop him being sullen the rest of the night. Now looking back I see how unreasonable that was. I went to a prestigious uni to do a master's degree shortly after we got together. We had a long distance relationship, but he would complain if we didn't see each other every weekend, and when he came to me he wouldn't engage with my new friends because they "made him feel stupid"; we were meant to go to a college dinner one evening with my friends and he bailed out on the doorstep so I didn't go, and we looked really odd in front of my friends. I'd been looking forward to it so much.

Shortly after I moved cities to live with him, I finally got a job and excitedly told him the salary which was higher than I'd been hoping for - he wasn't happy for me or for us, he was angry because it was higher than he had thus far been able to earn since uni. I remember still how much his reaction surprised and hurt me, years later. He'd get sulky if I wanted to go out with just my best friend or mother without him, saying he'd be bored and not understanding why I wouldn't want him there. He'd sulk horribly if I ever stayed put later than I'd planned to. It got so stressful that I'd do these things less and less, I got sort of absorbed into his group of friends. When we went out together, I talked less about things I had done that he hadn't like sex and travel. I watched what I said trying to avoid his sulks, which I could feel across a room if I forgot myself and started yammering away to someone else and he could hear me. I sort of diminished myself so as not to overshadow him. Which sounds really arrogant, but it's the only way I can explain it. And it became habit. And I became duller and duller. I'd clock watch at work things and leave before I wanted to as the later I was the more withdrawn he'd be by the time I got home. I hated feeling like I was making him miserable. I became hypersensitive to his mood in groups, and be very tense when I knew he was getting cross/upset due to feeling inadequate. I became very anxious around going out. Everything always had to go according to plan - his plan - or he'd get stressed out out of all proportion.

I was no saint through all this I hasten to add. We were in our twenties and drank a lot, I'd occasionally use booze as an outlet to release the accumulated stress, or if something happened on a night out to 'set him off' sulking/stressing (a bus not arriving, say, or the conversation "excluding" him by turning towards something he wasn't interested/experienced/knowledgeable in) I'd get very stressed and not handle it well at all and we'd have big messy drunken rows. In the couple of years before we had our daughter I recognised this was not helping things and stopped getting drunk by and large. It made it easier to manage his moods and my responses to them, and things improved between us. Also while this was happening, he was advancing in his career, his social confidence was improving, and he was far less dependent on me for company and socialising. I though all this was great as it took some of the pressure off. Our home life got ever more regimented - or 'organised', I suppose - and I went along with his 'efficiency' because my own instincts were far more scarry and "things will sort themselves out" so I didn't really have an alternative regime to stick to as it were. It was easier to do things his way as it mattered to him so much more how things were done, and I didn't really have a "my way" to counter with. And it was effective! Our lives ran like a well oiled machine, we saved money, bought a flat. He became less and less tolerant of anything that disturbed his environment (we had a neighbour with kids in the flat and the stress and animosity over their noise in the evening was dreadful) but we had a plan to sell up and move somewhere we could afford a nicer area and a bigger home; his argument when I spoke to him about having to learn to handle his stress better was that if he could just avoid/eliminate the stressors everything would be ok. But of course there were always those things beyond his control (like traffic, or the neighbors) he couldn't do anything about, and that always led to big problems. However, things were better than when we were younger (in the sense he was by and large happier) and our lives were moving towards objectively sensible goals. We felt "mature" compared to many of our friends of the same age. And eventually we felt ready for a baby.

However since having the baby I feel like I've woken up from a strange fuzzy state where all this drift has been happening without me really reacting to it, and woken up in the middle of a life I don't recognise. Behaviour I had just been tolerating or managing (temper tantrums over minor inconveniences, total rigid adherence to arbitrary domestic routines) when I see it in the context of how it affects and will go on to affect her, seem suddenly completely intolerable. And his need to control and dictate his environment meeting the chaos that is a small baby is just a match made in hell.

All this has been brewing for a while and we've had lots of circular one-sided discussions about it (his mode when I confront him on anything is either to go mute - lots of dunnos and no to any questions as I try to establish solutions and boundaries - or to blow up and shout at me, which he knows I hate, especially in front of the baby who is scared by it.

Major incidents since baby was born:

We were driving to look at houses in the city we have now moved to - baby was crying in the car seat, we were stuck in traffic and were a bit lost. He shouted at the baby to shut up, so loudly she flinched (she was about 7 months old at the time). After we had moved, I came down from the shower one morning as he was looking after her and overheard him telling her she was a 'horrible baby" (she was crying and had been going through a big phase of crying at the time). I confronted him on each of these issues, and explained to him it was a deal breaker if he didn't treat our daughter with gentleness and respect always. I asked if he would agree to some CBT to help manage his response to stress. He agreed in theory but never did anything about it. Things got better for a month or so, then slowly deteriorated.

All came to a head over Christmas when we were driving to see family. We got stuck in traffic and couldn't find a service station when he needed to pee. He got more and more angry and stressed and eventually had to pull over on the hard shoulder as he was having a full on panic attack. I asked him to please calm down as he was scaring me and the baby. We got into an argument and he SCREAMED at me, terrifying the baby who went hysterical. I begged him now to please stop, or to get out of the car, and reiterated he was upsetting her. He called me a cunt and a bitch. Eventually he got out of the car and I calmed the baby down. I could feel he was on a knife edge so didn't confront him at all until we got safely to our destination. When we did discuss it he told me it wouldn't have escalated if I had been more sympathetic; he has said similar before when I've told him not to shout at me - says if I handled things differently he wouldn't shout. I am well aware this is classic abuser's language. I tried to make him see this, that he can't make me or the world responsible for his emotional stability, he needs coping mechanisms etc. His answer was that it never would have happened if we'd got off at an earlier service station. As if that answers the issue of what about the next time something happens that we hadn't foreseen. He seems to make no acknowledgment of how scary it would have been for baby or how serious that is.

Since then I've just been going through the motions but I know something has to change. I grew up around shouting and anger and I WILL NOT have that for my baby. I need to have a conversation with him where I make this plain; I want us to go to Relate together to see if we can make any progress, and for him to get counselling/therapy separately. But I'm not sure any of that can help while he is only doing it to avoid a breakup,and doesn't actually accept he has a problem. I feel at the moment realistically I'm going to have to leave him. Which breaks my heart (I'm from a broken home and wanted so much better for my little one Sad ).

More practically: i'm currently on mat leave. We've just moved to a different city where I'll need to find a new job. We have no family here, and few friends. I would have some money as we have the proceeds of the sale of the flat in savings (enough for a deposit on a small house, we're currently renting) but no support network and (currently) no job. Baby is struggling with settling in to nursery and doesn't really like any caregiver but me or daddy, and sleeps really badly. I'm nervous about separating and access as I don't really want him to care for her alone given his stress responses.

As it stands on paper we have a "nice" life. If I leave baby and I will really struggle to make ends meet, even assuming I can find a job. And living in this city doesn't really make any sense as we moved her for his new job - none of my people are here. So would we move away from him? I just can't see what life would hold for us going forward, or what steps I ought to take to prepare for it. I feel instinctively it would be better overall for her not to grow up around anger and tension, walking on eggshells. And the thought of not having to constantly accommodate his rigidity and manage his feelings as well as my own tastes like freedom at the moment. But at other times I worry she needs her dad, he is great with her 90% of the time, and we can give her so much more as a family than I can by myself. I feel so conflicted and confused.

I don't know what I want from this. Just to outline it all possibly, to ease my mind a little. But ant advice or hand holding would be hugely appreciated!

OP posts:
Incognito35 · 01/01/2018 07:46

It sounds like you know what you need to do my love, the hard bit is building up the courage to do it.
You need to leave whilst your baby is young and unaffected by his behaviour, imagine him coping with a toddler going through the terrible twos?!!
If you have family and its possible go to them and stay for a while, this will enable you to look for a job and sort yourself out some other accommodation, the other thing is now he has you doing things his way he will not likely be very happy about you leaving and your family can help you.
You are not depriving her of a dad by leaving you are taking her out of a toxic situation.
It does not get easier as time goes by I'm considering my own relationship presently but have older children so much more difficult to do, my advice is make a clean break, contact your family, pack a bag ready in the car (if not car have a taxi ready or a lift) be ready for anger, crying etc (the loss of control will be a shock) tell him your leaving and go before he can make you change your mind.
I think the relief you feel not having to walk on eggshells will be immense, do it as soon as you can and make 2018 the year you get your old self back.Flowers

likelike · 01/01/2018 08:15

Like pp said. Leave now. Don’t dither. Your relationship sounds very much like mine. Ive day here and now my dd is 4.5 and I am so worried for how it’s going to affect her if o leave. I wish I’d left when she was a baby. I had a good job and still had evidence of being my own person. Since dd was born I’ve had a breakdown no longer work fallen out with old jobs so no reference and completely dependent on husband. I’m a shadow of the person I once was. I hope you get out. I regret not doing anything and feel stuck in no mans land now that dd is old enough to know her world will be changing in a way she wouldn’t want.

Ennirem · 01/01/2018 08:27

Thank you ladies. I think you're right that it's all up really, in my heart I know it is. Just so hard to admit I've wasted 10 years, missed god knows how many opportunities to be really happy, and have let my daughter down by having her with someone who I can't make a life with. I can't imagine explaining it to family, who think everything's fine. I can't imagine going from living in my own home with my own family to dossing in someone's guest room on sufferance, having to rebuild our lives from scratch. I just feel the most colossal sense of failure and dread about not being or giving enough for/to my daughter going forward. And embarrassment that I let this happen. If I'd stood up to him years ago instead of bending over backwards things could have been so different; he's not a bully really, he'd never have/never would hit me - I've just been so invested in trying to make him happy, and i dont understand why I let that become more important than whether I was.

OP posts:
Heatherjayne1972 · 01/01/2018 08:28

Oh op. Pack up and go
This is no life. He won’t change
Shouting at a crying baby?? If you stay she May well end up quite damaged
Please put your child first - you will be so happy

Ennirem · 01/01/2018 08:29

I hope you both find ways to get out of or improve your situations Flowers it's so so hard with little ones. I had no idea how it would change everything.

OP posts:
Dozer · 01/01/2018 08:31

He is clearly abusive and in addition sounds potentially dangerous to your DD.

You behaving differently earlier in the relationship would have made no difference, unless you’d walked away. No excuse for his abuse.

Leaving is what you should do now. Do you have or can you seek RL support? If not, an organisation such as Womens Aid could help.

Lundy Bancroft “Why Does He Do That” could be useful.

AliceWhatsth3Matter · 01/01/2018 08:37

I can only very quickly post, have to leave for work.

I was married to a man like your partner. The behaviours you describe are him exactly. I stayed married too long, I had had a childhood of tiptoeing around trying to,please and avoid triggering rages so I put up with the abuse too long. I too diminished myself to keep him happy.

I'm free now and it's bliss. Please don't blame yourself, if you'd something differently he would have found something else to rage about. This isn't you, it's him. Please make your plan and leave.

Don't let your daughter grow up like I did. She's already being affected by his anger, it's terrifying for a small child. It has affected my whole life for the worse and I'm nearly 60.

Be strong for you both, you've woken up and seen the reality. Keep yourself safe and get out into your new life.

SleepFreeZone · 01/01/2018 08:49

He sounds really scary to me OP. How do you think he's going to react to you leaving?

Mooncuplanding · 01/01/2018 08:51

He will never change

Leave now while you can just about see the wood for the teees

Incognito35 · 01/01/2018 08:53

You have not let your daughter down and are not a failure.
If you go (I hope you do) the short time you will have to stay with friends/family will seem inconsequential in the bigger picture, imagine just her and you waking up next year in a place of your own, no walking on eggshells, no trying to please.
Imagine being in this situation in another 10 years but your daughter also walking on eggshells?
Your family love you and will want the best for you, if you can't face telling them everything straight away ring them and ask them to stay for a while as you need some space then show your mum your thread.
You are young, rebuild your life and don't let the fear of the future hold you back from doing what you know in your heart is right.

Shakey15000 · 01/01/2018 08:59

He sounds fucking awful. I hope you leave soon, good luck

NC4now · 01/01/2018 09:03

This sounds incredibly difficult and sadly familiar to me. I left when my youngest was a baby (I had an older one who was almost 4 too) and while it was difficult for us all, I honestly think it was for the best leaving when baby was so young.
He’s never known any different. Living with Mum and brother (and now stepdad) and seeing his dad on weekends is his normal and he’s perfectly content with that.
It doesn’t sound like this is just a rough patch following the upheaval that comes with a new baby. So you have some decisions to make.
Would you like to go back to work full time? That would be the best option in terms of finding a job. I’d be quietly job hunting.
I’d also be seriously considering moving back to where your friends and family are. You can do it on your own, but having a support network will be a huge help, and you can start to get back to being you again. It’s a strange old journey and I suspect your self esteem is quite low.
In terms of his contact arrangements with your baby, does he have family, a Mum or sister, who could facilitate this? He clearly needs to work on his parenting, but you need the reassurance that LO will be properly cared for.
I really wish you luck. You sound like a great person with plenty going for you, but you’ve got lost in all this.

DontbouncelikeIdid · 01/01/2018 09:05

Well done on seeing things clearly. That can't be easy while you are in the middle of it! It seems obvious reading your OP that you and your DD would be far better off if you leave. On a practical note, you mention being on mat leave, have you actually left your old job officially? If not going back to where you come from, and continuing with that job would seem to make sense. Things are only going to get worse in a new place, where you are even more isolated with a small child. Don't waste another 10 years!

HappyHedgehog247 · 01/01/2018 09:19

I left for similar reasons when my dc turned 1. No regrets. I moved to be near family and the support and extended family is wonderful. I take dc to see her father and he comes here too so they see each other every other weekend despite the distance (he went to therapy and it really helped his bonding and behaviour with dc).

Porpoises · 01/01/2018 09:30

90% of the time is not good enough.

My mother is in some ways similar to your partner, can be very nice but has anger management issues which she never acknowleged or sought treatment for. Like him, she yelled at me, and called me a "horrible child ". It's left me with significant mental health issues in adulthood.

One of the biggest things that can make a difference to a cold is whether behaviour like that is normalised. I grew up believing that my family life was normal and that the outbursts were my fault for not being good enough, lovable enough.

If you leave, then your child will have one parent who can show her a normal calm environnent with a normal amount of freedom. This will give her a secure base.

Lightningbolt82 · 01/01/2018 09:31

I feel very experienced here..... I went through a similar relationship from age 19 to 29. I had 2 kids by the time I was 24 and I was desperate to leave for similar reasons to your own. I struggled as whenever I asked single mothers for their view on what I should do their response was always something along the lines of ' it's really hard'. I didn't feel as if I could really explain my situation as part of me wondered if I was to blame. Anyway.... Age 29 I realised that unless something was done, I would be with this man forever. I didn't trust him with the kids- he would shout and scare them and also when my son was born he said 'I'm going to throw you out of the window in a minute' which lead me never to want to leave him in the care of my partner (even though he probably wouldn't have done anything bad). So I stopped asking people for advice on what to do. I packed up my stuff while he was at work and calmly told him I was leaving and we would sort things out together another day. Obviously he reacted badly to this and almost wouldn't physically let me go. It felt dangerous at that point. If I were to plan it differently, I would pack as much stuff as possible including passports and paperwork like kids birth certificates and go and stay with a relative and explain what was happening over the phone. Work/money/support is hard, but you just have to do one thing at a time. So glad I did it. I'll explain what life is like now if youre interested!

Ennirem · 01/01/2018 09:42

Thanks for the support and advice. I struggle a bit with where to go - as I say I don't really have many friends any more, only one I could really lean on and she's got lots of her family with troubles on her plate at the moment. My family is split up all over the country and none of them would really be much good for emotional support - as I say, background very troubled, bringing my daughter to my mum or my dad and stepmum would be a bit like out of the frying pan into the fire in terms of toxic environment. The only person who could and probably would offer me practical help without the psychological damage is my sister - we're very close, she has kids of her own, she's got money so could help me out while I sort myself out - but she is a very dominant personality, she's always both protected me and overawed me a bit (not in a horrible way, we love each other very much but our upbringing was such she took a parent like role to me when we were tiny) and she also likes things jn her life just so, so I am concerned I'll just end up walking on a different set of egg shells. It sounds like I'm making excuses. I probably am. Still trying to come to terms with what I'm going to have to do, and I feel very alone in it.

His mum lives far away from here - she's great and loves baby, but there's some weird family stuff going on there that means I would be very uncomfortable with baby spending any time with any of his family unsupervised. Long story. Suffice to say I don't have much faith in her judgment for safeguarding purposes.

OP posts:
MrsDilber · 01/01/2018 09:58

You feel like you've wasted 10 years, please don't make it 15, 20, 30. We really do only live once and this sounds miserable.

Good luck, I honestly think, if you do leave him, you'll look back when the dust has settled (and it will settle) and thank heavens you did.

Lightningbolt82 · 01/01/2018 10:00

Again..... Very similar to how my situation was. I think my difficult partner rescued me from my terrible family life in the first place! Right I think there are various options. Some might seem like a huge deal to do. Can you first of all speak to someone at citizens advice? They might be able to sort out some kind of temporary accommodation which you could use just as a base to work from?

Ennirem · 01/01/2018 10:04

Lightning Bolt thanks for sharing. Can I ask what you did about access to your children? As I say at the moment handing her over to his sole care for a weekend isn't something I'd want to do, he tries but he gets so easily frustrated and she can be quite challenging (sleep refuser, early walker, very determined, needs a lot of input). But as he's never been violent to me or her not sure whether I'd get anywhere trying to limit/supervise access?

OP posts:
Ennirem · 01/01/2018 10:12

As I say I could probably stand to rent anywhere for a while as have the proceeds from the flat sale - my share would be around £35-40k, although if I take baby I wouldn't be shy in asking for a larger share to get us started. I just don't know where I'd go; we lived in London before, can't possibly afford to move back there especially as a single mum. My job is there and I haven't left, they're allowing me to work out my minimum term from home so I don't have to lose my mat pay. So it doesn't really matter where I am for that, I could then theoretically apply for work anywhere at all I could afford to rent/buy. But should I stay here (I like it here, started building a life and friends, found a good nursery for baby) go nearer to family (mother in North, father in south -unaffordable really), sister in South-West? Because I have nothing to build on I find it really hard to imagine a life... I just imagine being able to co-sleep with my daughter without him huffing and puffing next to us but refusing to sleep elsewhere; being able to leave the dishes until tomorrow if I want to and not straighten every toy in her playpen; not having to see him obviously pissed off about something but refusing to talk about it; not ever being shouted at like a naughty puppy if I disagree with someone. I can imagine the peace and freedom, but not the practicalities or how to get there...

OP posts:
Lightningbolt82 · 01/01/2018 10:17

Right so I promised my partner that I would not go down the legal route and that I would never stop him from seeing the children. ( I of course didn't trust him alone with the kids but I need to make him feel secure that I wasn't going to take away the children forever. ) I then stayed with my parents for a few weeks. I would call partner every few days to let him feel as though we were thinking of him. He was angry and really sad. I felt terrible. Over time I started to take the kids to his parents house so they would be there to help partner look after the kids. You might find your partner settles down after a few weeks of being apart. What ever you do though- do not back down once you have decided to go. It's really hard when they are unable to cope with the stress of childcare though- i totally understand

OurMiracle1106 · 01/01/2018 10:28

Oh sweetheart. I was in a similar situation. But my husband was physically abusive too. (And your partner will become so when the emotional abuse doesn’t work). I didn’t want to leave him because I wanted better for our son, I grew up without my dad (no ones fault he passed away) and I didn’t want to inflict that on my child but eventually I realised that the abuse would be much worse for him to see and I left him 6 years ago on fireworks night. (I had left before but always went back when he begged and promised). But by this time I was done.

We tried relate but there was nothing left to salvage.

Leaving was the best thing I could have done for ALL of us. Including my ex husband. I truly hope he finds his happiness

Wishfulmakeupping · 01/01/2018 10:39

I think you know you want to go- the issue is the logistics of it all now op? Where do you see life for you and dc? Where's home for you?
Would there be good opportunities for work? You've done the hard bit getting to this point you need to keep pushing forward now

NC4now · 01/01/2018 10:55

What would your ex want in terms of access? He may not want as much as you expect. You’ll be providing the majority of the care, so his part just needs to be ‘good enough’ ie. safe.
I think a solicitor could advise you best.
What were you planning to do about work when you moved? Is yours the kind of work that can be found anywhere?
For me having everything close together really helped - School, nursery, work, my mum and my ex.
My friend who separated from her boys dad when he was a baby had a childminder who lived in her street who was a great support as in addition to being a good carer for her son, was only a few doors down in an emergency.
Think about where your life will be easiest and what support you can get, practically and emotionally.