Help me with my lovely but difficult MIL, please!

[TeamEponine]

My MIL is very well meaning, she adores DH (only child), me and our DD. I really believe that she is a good person who would not do anything to intentionally hurt or upset us, but...

We are spending Christmas together and I really want it to be a lovely time. It will be a few days and we haven't seen her for over a year as last time she visited I snapped at her and she got upset. We usually get on well, but there are a few things that I find really difficult to deal with and I really want to deal with them in a calm way over Christmas as I'm horrified that I snapped at her and upset her.

She is incredibly high anxious and deals with this by planning everything down to the smallest detail, and cannot cope with any change to her plans. I understand why she is like this. It is a coping mechanism that she developed to cope with a traumatic childhood and some very difficult periods in her adult life. However, I'm incredibly independent and really bad at being told what to do. I snapped at her when she told me I should take a nap, I said I didn't want to, she insisted (it was well intentioned - DD wasn't sleeping well at the time and was napping, but I was really looking forward to watching a film with her and DH and having some adult time), I snapped and said I wasn't a child, I can decide when to sleep, etc...

There are also some cultural and language issues. DH isn't British and comes from a very different culture where the parents tend to be very involved in their children's lives and finances. I come from a family where we might talk about finances, but we would never explicitly ask or demand to know stuff, let alone try to dictate financial decisions. So when I am quizzed about our finances or she tries to tell us what we should do, I react badly. Again, she is well intentioned, she wants us to be financially secure, but she tries to tell us what to do and doesn't listen to our responses. Her English isn't great, which makes all of this rather more complicated.

95% of the time we get on fantastically, but the 5% of the time where we clash, we clash really badly.

DH and I have talked about this lots, and he totally agrees with me over the way she is, has tried to talk to her about it, but he is at a loss over how to deal with it too. He tends to either get frustrated and walk away, or he blows up at her.

She really is a lovely woman, and I admire her greatly, but I find it so hard to deal with the strict plans she sets and the intrusion into our finances.

Does anyone have any suggestions for how to deal with this situation?

Sorry, this is soooo long! If you go to here, thanks

Cultural differences or not she has no business being involved in her adult sons finances unless he wants her to. You also are an adult and are entitled to decide what you do and when. If she is stupid enough to get offended when you don’t immediately do as she says then this is her problem not yours. You are not a child and you don’t have to behave like one just because she thinks you should.

I totally agree with you, but then how do we deal with it calmly?

Neither DH nor I want to just give in and behave like children, and we certainly don't want to go NC over the occasional blow up when most of the time things are great. I'm hoping that there is some way to calmly diffuse and deal with the situation, rather than one of us exploding at her.

You're seeing his mother again this Christmas; why are you doing this?. You do realise that you are in for more waterworks from her as well as other bad behaviour in order for her to you to back off and get her own way?. She sees the two of you not as adults in your own rights but incapable children needing to be told what to do and when to do it. You have some insight as to why she is the ways she is but those are reasons. His mother never sought the necessary help but takes it out on her son and by extension you indeed. She being from a different culture is irrelevant, people can be this disordered of thinking the world over.

Such appeasement on your parts makes such people simply behave as badly or even worse. It also does your DD no favours at all to see you as her mum and dad being so undermined as parents and people.

People like your MIL do not adore children; they see them as things to be manipulated just as the two of you are when she is with you. His mother is herself a master of manipulation.

She is not well meaning, not worthy of being admired nor lovely if she treats you like this. No, no and no again. Why do you think she is at all lovely, you would not tolerate this from a friend or your own family of origin would you?. You really do need to think about that, you cannot apply the "normal" rules of familial relations to people like his mother because the rule book gets thrown out.

Where are your boundaries here re his mother, these need to be urgently raised by your H and you. She is overbearing and overtly intrusive and your DH is finding it also difficult to stand up to her as well, she probably turns on the tears with him also. Both of you need to put on a united front and stop yourselves being walked over like you have been to date.

Reading "Toxic Inlaws" by Susan Forward may help.

I would lower all forms of contact with her from now on; people like she do not change nor do they apologise or accept any responsibility for their actions.

It depends. Was she upset because you snapped at her or because you didn't do as she said? If the latter, even nicely saying "No, I'd rather not have a nap thanks," or "I'd rather not discuss money so let's change the subject," will not work.

I'm sure she said it was the way you spoke to her but I'd bet my car it was not.

TeamEponine

re your comment:-

"I'm hoping that there is some way to calmly diffuse and deal with the situation, rather than one of us exploding at her".

Sorry to write this but there really is not. Exploding at her has already happened and both of you are really at a loss as how to deal with her. Being "nice" to such people does not work because she will take niceness as weakness. She will need to be told quite forcefully by both of you together that she can no longer visit if she continues to try and over control you as adults. Draw your line in the sand here and create higher and more consistently applied boundaries.

I would think things are "great" between you and she the rest of the time simply because she is living far away from you.

You seem to come from a nice emotionally healthy family with properly maintained boundaries. Unfortunately your DH has not been as lucky.

Attila, I do appreciate your reply, but she is not as bad as you seem to think. 95% of the time that we spend together in the same room is great, there is just the occasional flash point. There have never been waterworks from her, and we are seeing her again because she is a good person who we love.

She can be infuriating, and I'm hoping to find a way to establish clearer boundaries. Not bend over and give in, but to set clear boundaries of things that we feel are unacceptable to be a topic of conversation. We have never done this before, we have only exploded or given in. I feel it is at least worth trying a middle ground. I have had to set some other "boundaries" with her on smaller things, and she has listened and now respects them. This makes me feel that it is worth trying to set some boundaries. I'm just not sure how best to do this, so I would appreciate any advice. Ideally not something tied up with a threat of going NC.

PNGirl - She never actually said anything about my snapping at her, so I'm not sure which it is. Probably both. It was obvious that she was shocked, she went very quiet and she was quite cautious around me for the rest of her trip. The fact that she was so cautious after this makes me feel that this will be a good time to establish clearer boundaries. I think everyone tends to just do as they are told because it is easier, so me fighting back seemed to have a real impact. If it did, this may be the perfect time to establish some ground rules for our relationship?

Have you heard of non violent communication? Might be a useful tool. It's all about acknowledging the other person's point of view whilst clearly explaining your own needs and feelings. Very respectful, very empathetic, but no expectation that you will yield or ignore your own needs. There are several YouTube videos that explain the concept

Is it mainly about finances?

If so, perhaps your DH could talk to her before the visit.

'Mum I want to bring this up before you visit as it's something that both Team and I are concerned about. We really want to make sure we all enjoy your visit, it's been so long since we've seen you and we really don't want anything to spoil it. Can we agree not to speak about family finances AT ALL during your visit? We both understand that you like to know financial details as you are concerned that we are secure, but it's something that we are both clear that we don't want to discuss, we feel it's our personal business and that's not negotiable. We've clashed a little bit on this before and it's upset us all so let's get ourselves clear on it now and avoid spoiling our time together.'

I feel your pain OP

We are going to my parents this Christmas for the first time in 14 yrs. We usually spend Christmas at our home and invite people but have given in after years of badgering from my Dad. He's from a different culture and is very intense and over bearing. He sees everything he does as being hospitable and welcoming when in truth it's simply exhausting for everyone else in the family. The money thing is exactly the same as you describe.

Unsurprisingly my poor wife finds it very difficult. She is from an extremely traditional and old fashioned English family and is very reserved in comparison. Like you and your MIL she knows my Dad's heart is in the right place but does find it difficult.

I'm more nervous about Christmas than she is to be honest - she had to persuade me that we should make the effort and go.

So our strategy:

Me - rise above it all. I know my blood pressure will go through the roof as soon as we set foot through the door, so I will try my best to wear a huge smile all day and be politely assertive. If your MIL is anything like my father, it won't make a jot of difference whether your husband speaks to your MIL beforehand. It's in her DNA. I don't envy your husband - I know what he goes through trying to be the "buffer". I have learnt to say "No" more and more assertively whilst wearing the biggest smile I can muster.

My wife - Attach herself to more balanced people in the family (my Mother, sister and my brothers sister) and take herself out of uncomfortable conversations and leave the tricky stuff it to me (I can't wait).

Good luck. I'd love to hear how you get on - we can trade stories.

Op I come from a Chinese family and you could have been describing my parents! There is no end to their intrusion. My dad even told us to get pregnant on a certain date so that we could have a summer baby
Even when I am home now , my parents will ask, have you had a shower yet? Did you brush your teeth?

It was hard for me to deal with when I was younger but now I just smile and nod. I find it is easier to ignore and just go with it than to fight back.

Sometimes I say, I don’t want to talk about it,firmly, then leave the room. Other times, I just smile and nod.

tomatoand cheese2009 - that's really helpful, thank you so much! I've just watched a couple of videos and it sounds like exactly what I need to do. I just need to try to channel my inner calm and not be my reactive self. I was wondering about writing a letter to explain how the whole thing makes us feel, and what we are and are not prepared to discuss. That way I can clearly communicate what I want to, and she will have time to absorb it. Might that work, in addition to the NVC?

Fizzy - no, not just finances, it is a whole range of things from very minor (what we eat at a restaurant) through to big stuff (finances, house buying, childcare). It is almost random, and not too frequent, but when she decides that something must happen or that she needs to know about something, then it is almost impossible to get her to back down.

Thinking about it, it is usually about something that makes her anxious (e.g. our financial security) or in a situation that makes her anxious (e.g. when she feels her lack of English will be judged). Maybe that is something I need to bear in mind when/if it occurs again. Try to think about why she is anxious and try to help reduce that anxiety without just giving in and doing what she wants.

It sounds like she wants to be more involved in the family than she is. Just tune her out if you can.

"You really are a lovely woman, and I admire you greatly, but I find it so hard to deal with the strict plans you set and the intrusion into our finances"

Be honest with her, and then refuse to get drawn in or discuss this stuff

"She can be infuriating, and I'm hoping to find a way to establish clearer boundaries. Not bend over and give in, but to set clear boundaries of things that we feel are unacceptable to be a topic of conversation. We have never done this before, we have only exploded or given in. I feel it is at least worth trying a middle ground. I have had to set some other "boundaries" with her on smaller things, and she has listened and now respects them. This makes me feel that it is worth trying to set some boundaries. I'm just not sure how best to do this, so I would appreciate any advice"

You can try the middle ground but I warn you now this may not be successful. However, it is worth a go and you want to adopt this approach anyway.

I would not write her a letter; this however nicely written may not be well received. Also she won't likely take any notice of it particularly if it is from you rather than her son.

If you want to set boundaries then you and your DH need to be on the same page and back each other up when she is becoming more difficult. Boundaries are behaviours; what is and is not acceptable from her to you, think about this a lot more. This is not going to work otherwise, you really do need to present a united front. Look at what you would and would not accept from a friend and use that as a reference; she is no different from a friend and you would not tolerate this intrusion (because this is what this really is) from a friend. You can still ignore her unhelpful counsel and smile and nod. You are both adults and can make your own decisions; this is something that she may never accept fully but that is her issue and not yours. People like this are not nice at all even though you think she is great most of the time. Two weeks is a long time with a person like his mother and she will continue to challenge you and your H.

I would also look at the "grey rock" technique and consider adopting this.

Your H here is key; how does he also want to approach his mother. Regardless of what she does he needs to assert himself here and cannot let any residual fear, obligation and guilt of her prevent him from doing otherwise. He cannot continue to act as her buffer when it comes to you because you seem to be taking most of this from her.

It sounds like she wants to be more involved in the family than she is.

Yes, I think this is very true. She doesn't really have any other family than DH , so I think she spends lots of time on her own trying to think of what she can do to help us, and these become her concrete plans. Again, it mainly stems from her anxiety, so I need to try to keep that at the front of my mind.

Hissy - I think that is a great summary of how I feel - thank you!

Something I've seen people do with overly intrusive/controlling people (I can't do it myself so it may or may not be helpful) is to use humour.

So she tries to send you off for a nap you joke about it. E.g. Haha, are you trying to get rid of me? (Big smile.) Or - Haha, I know you, you just want prime spot on the sofa! Nothing doing! (Big smile.) Or I'm not going off for a nap and miss out of having such a lovely time with my gorgeous MIL.

Another tactic is to take someone super seriously, so if she wants to know about your finances you say, wow, you sound like you're really interested in and knowledgable about finance, OH and I are sorted thanks but would you like a gift subscription to a financial magazine or to go on a course about handling investments?

Attila - Yes, I know that the middle ground may not be successful, but I want to at least try. If I have tried everything I can with no success, then I might need to take a step back. I also agree that DH is key, and he does too. He is mainly at a loss as to how to deal with it. He has always just exploded and then walked away, but he wants to work this out too. I think him and I need to sit down and work out exactly where our boundaries are, and then put these in place for the visit.

Luckily the visit ins't two weeks - I'm not sure any of us could manage that!!!

Emily - I'd certainly be a keen user of humour and sarcasm, however her English skills aren't really good enough for it to work.

TeamEponine,

re your comment:-

"I think him and I need to sit down and work out exactly where our boundaries are, and then put these in place for the visit".

Precisely. And both of you, he in particular, needs to stick to these like glue and not back down from any boundary set by you as a couple. A united front must be presented to his mother.

If the middle ground approach does not work then you are both going to have to take a step back. But it is worth trying in any event and you want to give this a go. I sincerely hope that she co-operates with you.

She in turn has to address the root causes of her anxiety that stem from her own childhood but she may never do so. She certainly cannot continue to behave like this because regardless of her own ethnicity this is unacceptable behaviour to you as a couple from her.

I think you need to learn the art of not engaging. So that if she starts telling you to take a nap again, you tell her just once that you don't want to, and then the next time she says anything about it tell her, "That's not up for discussion," or something similar. And change the subject.

If you refuse to engage she will have nothing to keep on about.

She does sound interfering, and I'm not surprised you snapped at her. I would have!

Right, here we go. Calm, clear boundary setting is about to commence! Wish me luck

My love, look at your op, you wrote those words about her, so tell her how you feel

Repeat as required

Can you practise some phrases beforehand eg. ‘No I’m not napping I’m watching this film with you ‘
Or ‘that’s interesting- I do it like this’
‘Oh mil it’s christmas I’m not talking finances today ‘. Etc etc
Smile and nod -then ignore whatever comment

My ex mil was a bit like yours. She got the message eventually

You could have been describing my mum. For a variety of very complicated reasons I can’t go NC with her, so over the years I’ve had to evolve strategies to manage her desperate need to control everyone and everything.

Like your MIL, my mum had a difficult and traumatic childhood. Surprisingly, the most effective way of being around my mum has been to treat her like a child.

Set firm boundaries. Praise her when she behaves well. Spoil her when you can and make her feel special (e.g. extra effort with xmas presents).

I realise this sounds absolutely ridiculous: she’s 67 years old FFS. However it seems to give her back the feeling of security she missed out on as a child, and if she feels secure, she doesn’t quiz me on things like finances and whether I’ve cleaned my teeth.

(No, living on eggshells and pandering to an emotional abuser isn’t a healthy way to live. But it’s the only way I’ve found to get through Xmas each year without traumatic arguments.)