Old Chestnut - DH does no housework

[boylovesmeerkats]

I'm so fed up of living with someone who does no cleaning. I love my husband very much, and I know in his head he thinks he does loads more than 'the average man' but the reality is that he does hardly anything. Yes he is quite good with the kids and does their bedtime, and drops my eldest off at school in the morning, but when he's doing bedtime I'm usually working (I work from home) and if he wasn't doing the school drop off he'd be sat in his pants drinking tea until 9am anyway.
He never hoovers, wipes, mops, never changes a sheet, cleans the bathroom, rarely washes clothes (and remembers to dry them) never buys food and he's gone from cooking regularly to maybe one decent home cooked meal a month.
How is this my life??! I bring it up now and again but he gets defensive and it never gets anywhere, his reaction is that I'm angling for an argument and we often have an argument and then I'm more exhausted from that than doing the housework.
I'm not getting a cleaner, for one we can't afford it, and for two I'm not paying another woman to clean the house when there is a perfectly fit and able man who could pull his weight.
Any advice? How do I bring this up for the millionth time without him going off on one.
I've tried not doing stuff, it doesn't really work. He would be willing to live in 'needing an obsessive compulsive cleaner tv programme' level of filth. Not only that but I'm in the house way more than him, so it's me that suffers. Tempting as it is to be out of the house all of the time, we have two boys that I'm pretty attached to.

He (and men like this) know perfectly well that their behaviour is unacceptable and wouldn't dream of replicating it at work
At work fear of the consequences makes him pull his weight, at home he can fob you off with all this passive-aggressive shit and there's not much you can do about it

Admittedly I do very little housework because I don't particularly care about tidiness - making sure there are enough clean plates and clean pants is about as much as I can be arsed with. But I'm single (and happy). It's not that these men are genuinely too stupid to see that domestic work needs to be done, it's that they regard it as women's work. That strand of feminist thought which insists men regard women as spunk receptacles is not one I have ever thought much of - men regard women as there for men's benefit and in many cases they don't care that much that the woman they live with is losing interest in sex with them as long as she carries on cooking and cleaning.

They have to buy into wanting to change in order for it to happen. Absolutely. But Molly’s husband is claiming that it absolutely isn’t his fault he does no housework. That he happily would if he didn’t have this terrible affliction. So a convenient “do dark load of washing”popping up on his phone will help.

Obviously if he actually is perfectly capable but chooses not to then it won’t make a blind bit of difference. And then Molly can decide what to do with that fact.

In the case of dh and me we are both a bit crap but actually both decent people who are reasonably happy to do our share.

Thanks all, well good news we managed to have a proper conversation without arguing which was great and it helped so much to be able to explain this is doing stuff because he's a grown man and he eats, wear clothes, uses the bathroom etc. Also that it's not doing loads, just 10 minutes here and there. He's since cooked me two meals, tidied up, poured me wine, put the kids' clothes away etc.

We've been having similar conversations for years so I'm not saying it's fixed but I'm happier if we can have a proper conversation. It really made him think that I was really miserable, and he is great with the kids but I explained that no amount of doing stuff with the kids is going to balance out him not looking after himself or me too, and that both of our parents have shit relationships (one divorced, the other miserable) because our dads are so fixed in their views.

Whoever asked yes he is more middle class than me, not sure why that's relevant but it proves your theory!

And what do I see in him? Well to be fair he isn't generally sat watching football with a can of beer instead of housework he's spending time with the children or being a bit inefficient with his time, or maybe reading a bit too much. He works hard, and is less messy than me even if he doesn't clean much. He's funny, kind, interesting and we enjoy our time together when he's pulling his weight, he's supportive, encouraging, clever and sexy. I don't want to be his mother or his housekeeper though, but our marriage is worth us both putting our all into.

I have enabled this to an extent but it is difficult, for a time he worked away part of the week, for a time I worked very long hours, for a while we rented for a few months so cleaning was low priority and when our children were really small we did very little cleaning, when we first met we had flatmates so it was only a bedroom that we were responsible for cleaning together. So times change and it's hard to fit things in the same way.

Thanks for all the help, advice and views though. It made things easier.

I'm recently married and we only lived properly together for 18 months. It was starting to head the way you're describing so I instigated a list on a Saturday morning of all the jobs that need doing and I ask which ones he wants to do and he just cracks on with it. He works longs hours than me and sometimes has to do work in the evenings so I don't mind doing no of the cooking and the shopping. But we always wash up the dishes together afterwards. I expect the dynamics will change if we have kids but the list seems to be working so far. Just say this is what needs doing...choose which half you want to do...see what he says.

Your post made me think of this www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/where-do-kids-learn-to-undervalue-women-from-their-parents/2017/11/10/724518b2-c439-11e7-afe9-4f60b5a6c4a0_story.html?utm_term=.6be298c58c24 I know you said he is trying, but ask him to read it anyway

Thank you for posting that article Tilly. There are some damning statistics in that. Ouch.

wow. this is a loooong post. you might want to get a cup of tea and make yourself comfy.

boylovesmeerkats I hope you don't mind if I gatecrash the end of your post. I'm really glad you managed to have a chat with your husband and things are looking up....me too. I'm sure many posts on mumsnet (and I'm mostly not a mumsnetter......please be nice with your responses and apologies for the lack of abbreviations) are written in the heat of the moment, or at least when we are cooling off and paint our husbands in a much worse light than they actually are.

Just to clarify, for those who suggested my husband is a lazy incapable arse, he absolutely is not. He works 14 hour days M-F at a very demanding job. Greentulips suggested he was squirrelling money away to do a runner. Absolutely not. We met in our mid 30's and both have very successful careers and well paid jobs. Mine has taken a back seat since we had children, but I still work 3 days a week and work in a sector where my skills are in short supply and could easily increase my hours.

my husband is probably never going to get 10/10 for his domestic skills, but if I'm brutally honest I'm to blame for some of his behaviour.....and before I get inundated with "you are not to blame for him being lazy arse", I'll tell you why.
There are some DP/DH out there who were either born domesticated or were trained that way by their mother or their wife. If you have one of those husbands, congratulations.
There are some wives out there (and both my brothers have married women like this) who aren't that fussy. They don't care when the domestic stuff gets done or whether its done particularly well, just as long as its done.One of my brothers is married to a SAHM and he still does well over 1/2 the domestic stuff.......and his wife is grateful.
And then there are DWs like me (and quite a lot of other women out there). Its not just that I want my DH to do stuff, its that I want him to do stuff the way I'd do it and in my timeframe. and this is where it all goes wrong. And to all those women reading this who think that their husband used to be helpful but isn't anymore...maybe this is why.I'll give you some examples. My husband folds the towels and puts them in the airing cupboard in the biggest free space he sees.I get annoyed because in 'my' airing cupboard towels are ordered into big, medium, small. I complain that he's put the towels in the wrong place (you know, 20cm in the wrong place). He feels criticised. so guess what? He doesn't put the towels away anymore.......one more job for me. Another example; he dresses the kids in the morning. their clothes don't match. I complain. do the kids care? no. Is anyone we meet that day likely to remember in a month that my kids were dressed in clothes that didn't match? No. Is my husband going to dress the kids again and risk getting chastised for putting them in mismatching clothes? No...... another job for me. My husband clears away after dinner. He does 80% of the clearing up, but leaves (and he always does this) one or 2 things unwashed or the table not wiped. I complain about the bit he hasn't done, rather than focusing on the 30 minutes he did spend clearing up. Guess what.......more clearing up for me. my husband has told me that there are lots of things that he doesn't do because he thinks he'll do them wrong (as in not how I like it). So rather than do them wrong, or get me to give him line by line instructions about how to do it my way he just doesn't bother.
When I concentrate on what he has done, rather than the bits that aren't done to my exact standard at the exact time I want it done my husband is visibly happy......and he actually looks for other things to do (there are still some things that he will never see, but I just need to live with that).
I started doing this over the summer and actually my husband did do way more. I guess school went back and the inlaws arrived for 10 days and things went a bit pear shaped. But just since my post 48hrs ago I've been trying again, and the difference is almost instantaneous. On sunday night he moped the kitchen floor. He missed a few bits and he left the bucket and mop in the kitchen still needing emptying. I could have complained about the missed bits and the fact that he didn't empty the mop.......and if I did that.....yes, you've guessed it, next time the person spending 20 minutes mopping the kitchen floor would be me rather than the 10 seconds it took me to empty the bucket. And when I thanked him he was a) visibly pleased and b) explained that the reason he'd left the bucket was in case there were any bits he'd missed that could be seen in natural light. Tonight, totally unprompted he cleared away 80% of the dishes and put all the left overs in the fridge. and I said thanks.....and he is happy that I'm happy.
for those of you with perfectly domesticated husbands, this might seem weird. For those of you like me who seem to fight a morning to night battle to get your husband to do anything, this works. Stop criticising/complaining/nagging and start thanking for the stuff he does do, even if its not the way you do it.......you can still do it your way if you like.......but then you can't complain that your husband is useless, only that he's useless at doing things exactly the way you want them. Its my (your)choice.
I'm sure I'll also get a fair few responses from women who think I'm a nightmare to live with......well I'm trying not to be.
and I have a disclaimer. I didn't come up with this idea all on my own. I read it in a book.......but the author of the book has taken a total hammering on mumsent (I'm not sure anyone had actually read the book, it just seemed they got the wrong end of the stick from a TV show she was on) so i'm not going to repeat her name for fear of also getting hammering. I think Joysmum may have read the book!
and now I'm going to take cover.

start thanking for the stuff he does do

So the toddler approach

I'll thank DH when he notices and thanks me for the stuff I do! You know get the kids to school, hep with homework, cook dinner, mop floors, clean toilets, dash to clubs and help grandparents, pay bills and sort out Christmas - all goes in noticed but god forbid he so much a washed a cup o should be fearful.

Works both ways

the toddler approach

I don't really mind what you call it. It gets stuff done and takes things off my list, makes me happy and my husband happy, so at least we are all happy toddlers.
And I have never said my husband doesn't notice what I do or thank me. He does notice and he does say thank you. Getting your husband to appreciate what you do is an entirely different thread!

Molly - I found your post very interesting as I have the same problem at work.

My employer has a handbook of policies and procedures about how things should be done . So for example, documents have to be filed in a particular file, not just anywhere in the cupboard. Apparently this makes it easier for the next person to find them.

But whenever I just dump them in the cupboard , they get annoyed . Rather than thanking me for what Ive done right , they concentrate on the 20% I got wrong. So Now I don’t do it it at all, I just leave the filing to the others.

Now they are complaining again . They say Im not treating my colleagues with respect because they have to spend longer looking for the document. And that it would take me 20 sec to put it in the right place rather than 5 mins for the others to search .

Ive suggested that somone could come along each time I’ve filed some documents and do it again correctly . In my opinion this would be a lot more positive than just nagging me. But they won’t do that either. They say it’s not a good use of staff resources and insulting to my colleagues to ask them to do that.

I’ve tried telling them that 20 secs of my time is more inportant to me than what others think and that they are too fussy and focussed on detail. And that the more they nag and complain , the less I will want to help them.

Deep down I’m hoping that if I keep it up, they will realise that I’m not suited to mundane tasks like filing and let me do more interesting stuff instead . Or have a longer lunch break while others do the filing.

How can I get them to see it from your point of view ?

My dad had been in the army, and learned to clean, iron etc there. So when he married my mum and they both worked, the housework was split 50/50 and whoever was home did the work.

It came as an enormous shock to me when I married my first husband, to realise that NOT ALL MEN DID THIS! That some men really thought it was a woman's work! I've held my dad up as the epitome of the perfect man ever since (he was a bit crap at some things, but in housework terms he was amazing). Any man who doesn't match up to my dad can swivel...I have proof that men DO notice mess and CAN clear it up without instruction/lists/reminders.

Kristina, thanks for your complete piss take.....for a few seconds you had me. But to go with your analogy I'm sure if your boss was grateful for what you did do and you felt appreciated you'd be more inclined to try and please him. I can see that if he only ever complains and nags you are less inclined to try and improve the situation.Humans usually respond better to praise than criticism and if you have the opportunity to offer praise than criticism, you are going to get a more positive response with the first option. Cristicism is not an attractive quality in anyone, least of all your spouse.
If my options are offer praise to get stuff done or get divorced because I'm bored of nagging I'm going to go with the praise option.
And just to update, my husband called me on my way home from work to see if there was anything he could do for me, and let me know he'd put a wash on. I came home with a smile to a happy husband. Take the piss all you like. It works for me.

I wasn’t taking the piss, I was making some points.

1.Its reasonable to expect someone to do their job properly .

1. It takes very little longer to do it correctly.

3.its disrespectful to your co workers to do it wrong and inconvenience them. 4.its arrogant to assume that your time it worth more than theirs.

1. Your coworkers will dislike you if you think you are a special snowflake who is too good to do the mundane parts of the job.
2. That such behaviour is called learned helplessness. I do it badly so I won’t be asked to do it again.

I’m glad that your approach is working well for you. But please don’t kid yourself that you are training your husband - he is the one who is training you. You give him kibbles for doing half a job and he gives you nothing for doing all of your work and a share of his. Result.

And the man certainly has a sense of humour - I loved the one about leaving the mop and bucket out overnight to assess the floor in the daylight. Because of course you would remop the floor with cold dirty water 12 hours later. Doesn’t everyone ? You’ve got to laugh.

I’m off to have my coffee while my colleagues look for the invoices I misfiled. Hopefully they will come back and tell me how great I am and how much they appreciate me .

@Kr1st1na - your analogy doesn’t work because your colleagues could complain to your boss and your boss could fire you. You’re also wilfully ignoring the socio-cultural background to how a lot of relationships work - easy for you to be smug and sanctimonious from afar, but for women in otherwise healthy and happy relationships, what you’re saying isn’t helpful.

A marriage isn’t a job, no one is the boss and there’s no rule for how a marriage works, so @M011y’s suggestions are practical and pragmatic rather than infantile.

How can a relationship be happy and healthy when one partner doesn't respect the other? Because that's what this is about. One person has decided they are superior so doesn't need to bother doing housework/childcare/whatever. Honestly, wouldn't you rather be alone then have to act thrilled everytime your husband half assed washed a cup? Surely the resentment would kill any love you had for him.
Also kr1st1na isn't being smug or sanctimonious.

Kr1st1na's comments make perfect sense.

its reasonable to expect someone to do their job properly .

Thats the problem. What is "properly"? In my house I like towel piles - big/medium/small. In my SIL's house they just have one towel pile. So my brother is never going to get told off for putting the towels in the wrong pile because there isn't a wrong pile, there is just one pile.And my SIL is grateful that my brother has put the towels away. And as far as I'm aware they have never had a problem finding towels. My husband doesn't open the airing cupboard door and dump the towels on the floor, he puts them neatly on the shelf. I can find the towels, they just aren't ordered they way I like them. That is my problem, not his.Its not MY house, I am NOT the boss (and neither is he), therefore why should he have to order the towels (and everything else in the house) the way I want it.
The filing analogy that Kristina used isn't really very fair. Clearly dumping files in a drawer isn't going to help anyone, and your boss would fire you. But there are plenty of office spats over HOW files should be filed.2 people can file in a different way, the files can be found both ways, they just each prefer their own way of doing it. At work I have colleagues who don't do things the way I do them, they don't do them wrong, just differently, and the result might not be quite the same as the result I'd get or like, but its a perfectly functional result. Do I complain to them? No. Why not? because if I did they'd say "do it yourself then". Sound familiar? I would never dream of treating my work colleagues the way I sometimes treat my husband.

Tillytown the lack of respect in our marriage comes from me insisting that stuff is done my way in my timeframe. When I complain and criticise my husband what I'm saying is "I don't trust your ability to do this, because I think you are stupid and incapable". My husband is neither stupid or incapable, he just does things differently. Sometimes I think he does them less well than I do, but there are many things that I do less well than him, and he doesn't criticise me when that happens, he just accepts that I did my best and supports me.
Constantly criticising my husband is absolutely not respectful and is never going to build a happy relationship.

And Kristina my husband isn't training me. My husband loves to see me happy. Thats what he fell in love with. It actually distresses him to see me completely stressed with too much to do. So why doesn't he help more? Because over the years I've criticised him into being scared of doing almost anything for fear of it not being up to my standard and within my timeframe(he has actually told me this). Over the summer, when I made a conscious effort not to criticise (and after years of complaining this is quite hard) within days he starts doing stuff. Not necessarily exactly the way I like it, but in a completely functional workable way.Since Sunday (we were at a really low point) I've been making effort not to criticise again and to be grateful and he instantly steps up.....aside from the things I've already mentioned in previous posts he also got up early today to hang up the washing (that he put on last night.....not on the setting that i normally use, but its still washed and clean). Again he doesn't hang the washing up the way I do....but d'you know what, its still going to dry. He has apologised for some shopping he forgot to get. And he has booked dinner for us on Friday night.....because he likes spending time with a woman who isn't complaining and nagging.

I'm not writing this post for woman who have domesticated men (either because they were born like that or because you've beaten them into submission - and `i've observed a few of the latter in my time)and don't understand why women with undomesticated men don't leave them.

I'm writing this post for women like me, who are a bit type A (ok, a lot type A), who have a husband who used to help, but over the years has gradually stopped. I'm writing this post for women who's lives are plagued with nagging and arguments over domestic chores and who have got to the point of almost walking out. And I'm writing this post for women who don't want their marriage to end over how the towels get piled in the airing cupboard.
When you open your mouth to criticise try saying thank you instead. It makes you (me) more attractive to your spouse and its a better example to your children. And you will almost certainly see a difference. the first time I tried this it was 10 days before I noticed anything, this time it was 48 hours. And life is just SO much easier and happier.

I think mO11y makes some good points, of course there are some men around who do nothing around the house but equally there are others who don't do it to the right standards - but who is to say what the right standards are? And it is not an employment situation with a policy and procedures file .

My DH and I differ on standards of housework, he hates using the dishwasher so will wash up by hand - I shove everything in the dishwasher so I can put it out of sight; he has a phobia about dishcloths not being properly rinsed after every use, I don't care - these are obviously just niggles but it shows that everyone has different standards about what is 'correct' and whether one partner is actually 'helping' or 'hindering' the process of housework. There are mumsnetters who think vacuuming is a daily task - I'm glad I don't live with someone who expects that !

My parents are in their late 80s (married over 50 years) and still argue about housework, not because either of them isn't doing enough - but because they can't agree on what is the acceptable standard .

mo11 your post very clearly and eloquently put. I found it very helpful. As you suggest, the thing is there has to be goodwill in all this.

Because over the years I've criticised him into being scared of doing almost anything for fear of it not being up to my standard and within my timeframe(he has actually told me this)

I’m sure he has, it’s bollocks though.

I do feel sorry for the Mollys of this world who bend over backwards to rationalise why their husbands do f all.

Good luck OP, I hope things get better.

I've posted before about this exact same thing, and this has been a very enlightening read. Thank you all!

When my husband and I first got together we were both as lazy as each other. But I've been a housewife/unemployed/on maternity leave/parttime worker/student for our whole relationship with only short interludes of full time work so generally most house hold jobs have devolved to me overtime. Now, with my own business and three children I'm quite the dogs body as my husband literally has no idea of the scale of work required. We got a cleaner to pick up some slack but after next week, I will be recovering from a major operation for weeks and weeks (all month of December).
My husband is taking time off to care for me and the house/kids, and I've already pointed out how leaving all the laundry/housework etc to wait til January would be an unacceptably unkind burden to place on a convalescent.
I am waiting with fascinated glee to see how he manages.
What he doesn't know is that I have NO intention of taking it all back. Not all of it. I want to go back to work.

Mine doesn't lift a finger cleaning wise around the house, he works VERY hard, VERY long hours. So we have come to a compromise and he now pays to outsource this task and we have a cleaner for a few hours a week.

Both of us are now very happy about the situation.

If only I could get a cleaner to do all the shopping, cooking, dishwashing, tidying , laundry, change and make beds, tidy, clean and do all the household admin in a few hours a week.

I’d be very happy too.

You must give me the cleaners number brio.