Hopeless husbands - they can't all be like this!

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This forum is littered with posts about men who are hopeless partners: thoughtless, abusive (in every possible way), financially mean, totally uninvolved with their children, refuse to take their share of housework etc.

Ladies - why do you partner up with men like this? Is the desire to have a man at all costs, or to have children so all-encompassing that it overrides common sense and personal pride? What are you doing with these wastrels? Is there no hint before the children arrive that they might be a bit lacking in some way?

It would be lovely to have a thread where folk tell us about their great partners! It is so depressing to hear about these useless people who are bringing up the next generation.

NC
Late teens early 20’s
I had everything on paper but young and probs low self esteem
Married. Abusive not going into details but I would go to a and e pretending to be ill to avoid his abuse
Only got out by going back to parents feeling a failure and ashamed (honestly looking back ridiculous but I’m older and wiser now)
I would fit smug married now and professional career
Only DH and sister know
So really, you can’t tell what people been through
And no they are not all hopeless

I think you're missing a fairly obvious point here: most women who are with abusive men don't realise it.

These men are smart. They don't just turn around one day and beat the shit out of you. They gradually acclimatise their victims to their abuse, and they make damn sure that all of their other behaviour is so excellent on paper that women feel unable to recognise the behaviour as abuse.

You only need to see the posts here from women who've been raped by their husbands. Coming in cold and reading just those words, it's so obvious what has happened, but after a long history of being treated well 95% of the time their victims cannot compute what's just happened to them.

The victims are living in the monkey house and can no longer smell the shit. Sure, you walk in and immediately say "it smells like shit in here, why don't you go outside?" but they've stopped smelling it a long time ago.

I've been sexually assaulted by multiple partners and overtly raped by one. It still took me years to establish that that's what happened because it didn't make sense to me. Throw in all the social conditioning for female deference and it's hardly a surprise.

Tammy yes!! This is it to a tee
Thank you

I’ve had two relationships with men who were all of the above. Mean, spiteful, childish, petty, and vindictive. The thing is, they were nothing like that at the beginning. Yes, yes I know. I should have got out of the relationships as soon as they crossed a line but by then it’s confusing because you can’t accept that the person they’re showing you is actually them because they weren’t like that for sometime. Also, their subtle regular put-downs undermines your boundaries so you don’t react as strongly as you would had they behaved like that on the first date. Add to this the fact that some people are more likely to make poorer choices of partners because of childhood neglect/abuse.

These men are smart. They don't just turn around one day and beat the shit out of you. They gradually acclimatise their victims to their abuse, and they make damn sure that all of their other behaviour is so excellent on paper that women feel unable to recognise the behaviour as abuse.

This. Abuse as like a virus. It changes and mutates, so it’s often hard to see it for what it is. As every generation of women becomes a bit more clued up, abusers have to regroup, and change tactics. You’ll see a lot of complaints about PA and strategic incompetence on here, I suppose because men know they can no longer get away with flat out refusing to do housework.

Our ideas about what abuse looks like also stop women identifying as abused. If you’re the sort to argue back, you can kid yourself for a long time you’re in a ‘high-conflict’ relationship. You’ll tell yourself you give as good as you get. You’ll blame your arguments on faulty dynamics or communication problems. It can take years to actually unpick what’s happening, and see who the abuser is.

These men are smart. They don't just turn around one day and beat the shit out of you. They gradually acclimatise their victims to their abuse, and they make damn sure that all of their other behaviour is so excellent on paper that women feel unable to recognise the behaviour as abuse.

See I don’t think most abusive partners have a plan or mean to be abusive. They’re just immature which is why they use the behaviour of a manipulative child in close relationships but are still able to act like grown ups with people outside that private arena. I don’t think my abusive ex meant to be so, it’s just who he is/learnt behaviour. It’s not personal against me. He didn’t target me to bring me down. He just doesn’t have the emotional intelligence to do intimate, mutually supportive relationships.

Not blaming women - as the post makes clear, I am concerned about the state of men as revealed on this forum.

And I have made it clear that I see society and education as lacking in not supporting women in these situations. No woman should have to to be wondering what to do about an OH who rapes her - the systems should be there and she should have been taught about them as part of the school curriculum.

I do have a clue - my life was spent working with many women in these situations which is why I feel so sad that nothing is changing and things seem to be getting worse. I was learning about all this at uni 40 years ago but still women are in this invidious situation. I find it desperately sad.

It is not about women being at "fault" and blameworthy - it is about young women being so vulnerable. The threads about young girls feeling obliged to perform sexual acts that they do not want and shaving their pubes not because they want to but because boys expect it - where is the place in the curriculum that encourages these girls' sense of self-worth and rights? We seem to have progressed not one jot. The women's lib emphasis on careers and glass ceilings is laudable; but somewhere along the line these young girls need to feel they really matter.

I agree op and I ask myself the same thing every day. Not about abuse, because as explained above it's usually the boiling a frog scenario. But about women choosing men who don't do their share of domestic work, or who are just all round lazy.

My best friend has done it. I think it's because she really, really wanted to be married. Her parents taught her that marriage is a very important part of adulthood, and then along come a million romantic books and films that teach us that 'love is enough'.

Love doesn't do the dishes or remember to get the car MOTed.

I'm going to get my arse handed to me and I can accept that, but I don't understand why women continue to add ties to their lives (marriage, more children, a dog etc) with men who haven't already stepped up.

I often hear 'yes but by the time you have children...' etc but children usually arrive one at a time. Surely he demonstrates his parenting ability when the first one arrives.

I think the answer is that yes, women do generally want a husband / partner and more than one kid. And those things over ride rational decision making.

My friend used to practice her 'married name' whenever she met a new guy. The world has trained many of us to see marriage as an end game rather than a building block of future happiness.

I'm in the process of divorcing my dh, due in a large part to complaining about him on here and realising it wasn't a normal relationship. We were very happy for a long time, we lived together but we're also very independent, went on separate holidays sometimes, he worked very long hours, but we were really happy.

When we had dc, dh continued to do all these things. His life didn't change one tiny bit. I, on the other hand, had to quit my career to look after dc as he has SN, spend my days tidying, washing, cleaning up shit and not speaking to any other adults as none of my friends had babies. Sometimes it's only after marriage/ dc/ illness/ death in family etc etc that you become incompatible and realise actually your dh is no good for you.

I’m glad Tammy has made the point about the dynamics of abuse...

It’s what I was getting fired up to say...

What is truly ludicrous is your idea that somehow women who have been or are being abused by abusive men are somehow responsible for the abuse. What about you focus on looking at why there is a pandemic of male violence and aggression and criticise that?

My ex was a completely nightmare. I don't blame myself for entering into a relationship with him. He pretended to be a good person and was a very good actor. I'll never trust a man again and I've been single for nearly a decade. He's not the only man I know that is like this, most of my friends have met similar types.

Disclaimer: I know there are some good men out there. I've heard they exist, but only on Mumsnet and in the media.

I am finding this thread very interesting. In my case, I think low self esteem/lack of confidence has contributed to some of my life choices. I am sure that I put up with too much for too long in my marriage. I also think that it is very easy to fall into a particular mindset - I ended up on an emotional abuse Facebook page which opened my eyes to what was happening in my marriage but that also didn’t really allow for any other situation apart from “ all men are narcissists/sociopaths” & that it is very rare for men to change their “ entitled” behaviour. I keep telling myself to leave the group but haven’t as yet, even though things are WAY better. It’s like with any forums, including on here, that people only get a snapshot of somebody’s life ( although clearly there are cases where there is no denying the problem).
I met DH in my mid 30s & we got engaged 9 months later then married 5 months after that. To be honest, we really needed to go to Relate after a few years & there were signs before that of him having controlling tendencies. Maybe I should have left and/or given him an ultimatum but when it was good it was very good. I am not the same person now & when I look back, it horrifies me to remember what a wreck I was sometimes. I still don’t really know what was going on for DH & where his anger came from. I think he was emotionally very immature & probably indulged by his DM, as he was a happy “ accident” & there is a big gap between him & his siblings. He has cripplingly low self esteem too. I spent many years excusing his behaviour & as I have already said, I shouldn’t have put up with it, but I love him & maybe it was easier to stay.
Anyway, things are not perfect now but compared to this time last year our relationship is a hundred times better. He has dealt with his anger & although he can still be manipulative, I am much more switched on & aware of when we are both slipping back into unhealthy ways of communicating. I have set boundaries. We can discuss important things like adults ( most of the time!) & he is much more open with me & more empathetic towards me & DD. Of course all this affected her too, although we tried not to argue in front of her, and both she & I can trust DH now & not feel that we need to walk on eggshells. It really is like living with a different person. We have done a lot of work eg family support worker, parenting courses etc & had counselling separately. To sum up, things could have turned out very differently & we had to reach a very low point for things to change but they have & we are looking to the future as a much happier family.

The thread title is about hopeless husbands, not aggressive or abusive ones.

MN is full of women who love their husbands but despair of their useless ways. I think those were the ones the op meant.

But the first paragraph reads;

This forum is littered with posts about men who are hopeless partners: thoughtless, abusive (in every possible way), financially mean, totally uninvolved with their children, refuse to take their share of housework etc.

And the op then went onto to make several really insensitive comments including about rape...

For which I have apologised. Blame strength of feeling for wording it in an unfortunate way.

I had DDs and they are now married and, than goodness, happy - although happiness is never the whole story for any of us. And it is more by luck than judgement - there but for the grace and all that.

I just feel so despondent that there are so many hopeless men around who do not seem to have matured and learned what real life is about - and young girls who are feeling that they have to do what boys want - that is where abuse can start.

My DH certainly isn’t hopeless or lazy. Even when we were going through the problems, he always worked very hard & was hands on with DD. I would like him to cook more often & do more housework but he works 6 days a week & long hours so does what he can 🙂

P.S Just read the post about blaming communication difficulties - well this can be a biggy for a lot of couples. It doesn’t mean to say that some of what DH did wasn’t abusive but now that we communicate more effectively, it has made a big difference to our understanding of each other & to how he now treats me

I genuinely believe some people would rather be with someone with huge flaws than alone.

I've known a couple of people even admit to this.

It could be for a lot of reasons, low self esteem being one. I think a friend of mine is like this. She's ha a series of boyfriends and tolerated a lot of things that I just would not accept.

I honestly do not think that there is any apologising for this comment;

but some of the questions on here beggar belief - my OH has raped me, should I leave him?.......what!?

It is ignorant, insensitive, crass and disgusting beyond the reach of any apology. Did you for one minute even think about how making this TAAT and then making these comments on it would make people feel?!

Women wading through this shit have enough to deal with without being held responsible for the bad behaviour of their partners and educating ignorant people starting TAATs about situations which are often the very worst thing that has ever happened to them.

I’m sure you meant well.... but meaning well is not enough when it results in this...

The problem is NOT about educating women.
It's about stopping a patriarcal society that tells them that women are below them and should be at their service.
Just like the issue isn't th encumber of women coming over saying #metoo and 'realising' (really was it not that obvious before?) how many women have been sexually assaulted - that is close to a 100%. The issue there is MEN and the fact that none of them have stand up and said 'that's enough. As a man, I'm taking responsibility and I will NOT let that carry in'

If you have a solution to change that, let us know.
I use to think this was a battle that was gong to be won at the family level. With women fighting for their rights and changing things within their own family.
I'm not so sure anymore tbh.

As for men being immature... poor poor them.
They are not immature. They just know that they can get away with it.

Because it's there everywhere. In soaps on TV, in papers reporting how rape is so underreoprted, in discussions with friends who will make comments about how XX woman is lying when she is crying rape because she invited the guy to her house. So clearly she wanted it.

When something is happening and the guy is beating her up, it's because they have communication issues. Yep. Not all the fault of the guy for physically assaulting a woman. It's her fault too for not communicating well. Do you think you would ever hear something like this when a man beats another man? It's happened because he flipped because they were not talking??

When I met my ex we were both 23. Neither of us was very good at cooking or particularly interested in cleaning. Neither of us had a responsible job or any other responsibilities. We moved into a cheap and nasty flat together and spent our money on eating out, going out together or going on holiday. We were equals and things went well. We shared jobs equally.

As things were going well we decided to try for a child and were lucky. We moved into a nicer flat. Ex got a more responsible job at this time, and also kept up with some evening work he'd been doing just for extra cash. It made more financial sense for me to stay at home with our daughter.

That's when things changed. I was at home, so "obviously" did the housework, as he was out all day and many evenings. Through practice, I got better at cooking and cleaning, ex got worse. We had a second child, so I didn't try to return to work for 3 years. Now we had less spare cash. We didn't go out as much. We were both tired. We didn't talk as much. He stayed at work longer. Obviously these were not problems we had before we had kids.

By the time I tried to start work again, he was earning enough that my few hours always came second. I tried working in the evening but he would arrive home late and I'd have to take the kids with me. I tried working in the morning, but when the kids were sick I was always the one to take time off as he "just couldn't". Obviously these were not problems we had before we had kids.

I found another job working from home, cementing my role as person in charge of home stuff. By the time we moved home again he was working even longer hours and no longer doing any cooking or cleaning. I couldn't do anything regular in the evening as I was caring for the kids. I felt that I should be an encouraging, unselfish partner and support his career plans.

Taking up a great opportunity, he took a job in another town, coming home only at weekends. I was now in sole charge of the home and children. At the weekend he was knackered, which I understood. He'd also doubled his weight since I met him and was unhealthy and lethargic when not at work. I felt like I didn't have a husband, and tried to get him to return to our town, but he saw this as me nagging, complaining and failing to support him. He withdrew even more and hardly even spoke to me and the kids.

At no point did I select a hopeless husband. What was my stupid mistake in this story? I'd love to know how you would have done things so much better than me.

End of story: he found an OW and mentally tortured me for a year until I found out. Now divorcing and enjoying trying out bfs who place value in spending time with their partner.

I remember as a child/very young woman thinking like you. Age....a few (very minor)set backs of my own have softened my stance considerably and made me a nicer person. Count your blessings lovely rather than pulling on your judgy pants. I suspect that I would not be able to cope nearly as well some of the dreadful situations the women on here post about. Remember " There but for the grace of god go I." Though the simple psychology is one of shifting power over the course of a marriage and the temptation of one party to abuse that power.