17 years of an increasingly angry husband

[Tessie56]

Hi all. I'm new to mumsnet and hope you can all offer me some advice. I've been married for 17 years and have 2 teenage kids. My husband has always been tricky, but over the last few years, he's become more and more angry.

I put it down to him feeling like he has a lack of control at home. The kids are no longer babies and he can no longer tell them what to do. The problem is that he doesn't approach them in the right way. Rather than trying to have a dialogue with them, he just goes straight in with "you should respect me" and "I pay all the bills". The second of these isn't true because I work part time and put most of my earnings into the joint account, which he never seems to value.

His anger has become repetitive and exhausting. I see other couples chatting about their day and being able to discuss issues with the kids in a calm manner. When I try to do the same, he gets defensive and turns it all back on me, even if I'm trying my absolute hardest not to offend. I've been called an idiot and I've lost track of the eye rolling and hard stares when I say anything he views as wrong.

I've had counselling for this and have learned that I can't change his behaviour. I can only change how I react to it. That's all very well, but I'm wondering what damage is being done to the kids in terms of their relationship with their dad and also in terms of what they'll expect from their future relationships. If we stay together, will they even want to come back and visit us when they're older?

I actually want to leave but there are a few things stopping me. Firstly, how much it will hurt everyone - kids, extended family etc. My brother has serious mental health issues and my parents are consumed with worry. I really don't want to add to that.

Secondly, I can't afford to go. I only work part time and that job is about to become redundant. I also know that, with his personality type, he would make it extremely difficult to negotiate any kind of divorce. He would punish me financially if he could. He's done it while we've been married.

Any advice you can offer would be greatly appreciated. Mental abuse is so hidden and I've only spoken to professionals about it. I'm too embarassed to speak to friends/family. It makes me sound weak and pathetic, but I just don't know what to do. Please help!

I would start getting yourself in a stronger position to leave. Cut back on the unpaid work you are doing that benefits him and apply for some full time jobs that fit with your work experience. Gather information about his financial position & your joint position. If you have everything already in place for when you do leave, at least tge logistics will be sorted.

Look for another job and leave.
Please don't worry about your parents and extended family. They'll come to terms with this and will probably be quite supportive once they realise what you've been going through.

The only way you could stay is if your husband acknowledges that the way he is is damaging to his family and seeks help and counselling and makes an effort to change. How likely is that?

Give yourself a date
Say a years time
Track back from that
Find a full time job. Keep paying into joint finances. Keep the extra.
Take legal advice
Find out what house is worth. How much do you need to earn to buy somewhere else with your half of the equity?

If you left with your teens, depending on their age you might be entitled to benefits, possibly working tax credits?
Perhaps talk to your local housing options, make an appointment and tell them your situation. They can help with refuge, rehoming and applying for the correct benefits.

Emotional abuse hurts just as much as a punch to the face. Basically he's battering your mind and self worth on a daily basis. I could feel your exhaustion through your post, I imagine you're drained and stuck in a fog. You've done something positive already though by posting here.
Keep coming back and regain that strength you have deep down, read what MNers say. His anger will only get worse but your strength can only get stronger at this point. Keep going xx

I was you. Living with an angry critical man, depsite what I did wasn;t good enough. i loved him dearly and I stayed 3 years longer than I should of. In that time my self esteem plummeted, I overthink and had anxiety (started to have panic attacks). I tried, the harder I tried to make him happy the worse things got. In the end, i realised i couldn't change his anger, but I could put a stop to being his verbal punchbag.

Hardest thing I ever did, but 8 months out, I know it was the right thing. He has mellowed a bit, and is much better with the kids now I am not there, even he recognises that. But the damage has been done.

Don't worry about your family etc, this is about your happiness and what you deserve. So many women (and men) stay in relationships out of misguided fear. Yes it will be difficult, but you need to decide if a shorter time of stress and unhappiness while you make the split it worth more than the rest of your life in misery.

Good luck,

Hi Tessie

re your comments in quote marks:-

I've had counselling for this and have learned that I can't change his behaviour. I can only change how I react to it".

Correct.

"That's all very well, but I'm wondering what damage is being done to the kids in terms of their relationship with their dad and also in terms of what they'll expect from their future relationships. If we stay together, will they even want to come back and visit us when they're older?"

What do you want to teach your children about relationships and what have they learnt from the two of you to date? You've both taught them a lot of lessons that they themselves could go onto replicate in their own adult relationships. If you have a son he could well grow up treating you the same as his dad does; for a daughter she could well choose someone like her dad. Its no legacy to leave them.

Abuse like this absolutely thrives on secrecy; time to bust this wide open now. You have a paper trail of sorts because you have spoken to professional people about him; use that as well as the resources I mention below.

As LiveLifewithPassion rightly states do not worry about wider family; they will probably be supportive and understanding after you have explained all that you have gone through. Do not stay because of or even for them; after all they are not married to him and you have seen the full realities of what he is like towards you and in turn your kids.

Why would you want to stay together at all?. Your children have seen and heard way too much already (and sound travels); do not continue to do your bit here to show them that yes, this is acceptable to you on some level. If you were to stay together as well I think you would find that your relationship with your then adult children will be further damaged. This is because they could accuse you of being weak and putting him before them. Neither will want to visit you very often if at all particularly if you are still together.

I think your children and you will be happier in the long run if you were to part from their dad/H respectively. Would urge you to seek legal advice; you do not have to act on it immediately but knowledge after all is power. You have been married to this man for a long time and you would likely receive a good financial settlement. He won't make it easy for you to leave and could become further obstructive in divorce proceedings (infact I would assume that as a given) as a way of clinging onto his power and control over you all.

Womens Aid and the Rights of Women organisations are well worth contacting in your case and I would urge you to call them too.

You can and should escape this man before he really does make you a shadow of your own former self and take your kids down with him too.

BTW did you grow up seeing similar in your childhood?.

Men like this take time, years even, to recover from. I would also urge you to do the Freedom Programme run by Womens Aid to help in your ongoing recovery from this abuse he has meted out to you all. Your own boundaries here have taken a real battering and they need readjustment badly.

REally good advice. Thanks everyone. I think I know what I need to do. It's just going to be tough. AttilaTheMeerkat - yes I'm starting the Freedom programme next week. I've been trying to get on it for a while and it's finally come up on a day that I can do it.

I never saw anything like this in my childhood. My parents didn't argue in front of us at all and when they disagreed, they resolved it in an adult manner. His parents were and continue to be major arguers. I should have realised this before we got married.

I just can't believe that I've got myself into this situation. I'm so embarassed and ashamed. I've kept it all in for so long because it's easier than dealing with it, but I think I've reached a point of no return now.

Thank you all for your constructive and kind words.

Get yourself into an increasingly strong position. Open a savings or separate account and put a chunk of money in it each month. Look into increasing your hours, your salary etc. Build up your career if you can. Check out local rental properties - just so that you are well informed if you do decide you need to move.

Defend your children against any irrational behaviour of his. My parents believed that parents should always show a united front as it created a stable family. But it just meant my perpetually furious father got away with shit for far too long. It took me until I was 50 to answer him back and now I'm the person he least manipulates in the family because he knows I won't tolerate it. As a result I have never ever backed DH when I think he's wrong in any confrontation with the children. I always speak my mind and feel a great sense of strength and relief when I do.

Encourage your children to calmly not accept his anger when it's unfounded. Stand up to him when he tells grandiose lies. He doesn't pay all the bills - you pay some too. At some point, try and have a very direct conversation with him about how the anger (not him personally but the anger) is eroding your relationship, his relationship with the kids and the chance for a calmer, warmer household as the children mature. I had to explain to DH that the boys have different needs now they are teens. He just couldn't work it out for himself and got grumpy that what used to work no longer did.

But all this only works if the anger is just eye rolling grumpiness. If he's ever likely to turn physically violent, I owuldn't stay for another minute.

He's never been violent in all his anger, millifiori. Not that the mental abuse hurts any less. Sometimes I wish he'd hit me so that I could show someone the bruise as evidence.

I'm going to go on the Freedom course and start squirelling away funds. I'm going to give myself a year to strengthen my mind and my finances and then make a decision. I'm going to encourage him to be the best he can and hope that somehow he can get some emotional maturity to beat this (I can't see it). If not, I'm going to find a way out.

I'm also going to keep chatting on here because I know that, in a weeks time, he'll be all lovely and apologetic and I'll think everything's OK again until the next time. It's such a pattern. How on earth have I lived with it for so long?!

agree with putting yourself in a strong position, in every way (financially, emotionally etc.), this is good advice really for anyone in a relationship. You should never feel trapped.

How old are your kids? Can you tell us a bit more about them? What sort of things cause arguments?

I have two boys, age 13 and 15, and I find that whilst we have various conflicts, they respond well to being treated as an adult (i.e., talk them like you would to an adult, without shouting, explain things but also listen, then try and come to an agreement), DH on the other hand had a very authoritarian dad, who'd take no lip and would get angry very quickly.

DH can get very angry over small things and escalate things, and then everyone is upset and shouting. However, with the boys being older, they stand their ground and no longer accept: "You do this because I say so!"

I had been warned by friends with older teenage boys that dads often don't know what's hit them, when their sons start to lock horns with them instead of accepting their authority.

SO part of this, and conflict, is normal. However, I am glad my DH is seeing that we get a lot further with calm talks, most of the time.

As a result, DC tell us lots of things, and we are still close as a family. Yes we still have arguments at times! But things don't escalate.

It is a big change, when your kids become teenagers and some parents are not prepared.

However, if your DH is utterly unreasonable and aggressive, it is obviously a more serious matter.

ok, cross posted, looks like I did not get how serious this was!

I'm with you Ruby. I'm all about my relationships with my kids changing over time. He still acts like a stroppy teenager around his mum. They haven't moved on at all, so it's no wonder he doesn't know how to move on with his kids. So sad.

My daughter is 16 and my son's 13. My daughter in particular very much stands up to him and takes no rubbish. Why should she?? It escalated so badly the other day that she called him an arsehole. Not a nice thing to say to your dad, but he was behaving appallingly. Then I get blamed for her behaviour. "Why are you letting the kids speak to me like that??!!"

Whilst I can understand how hurtful that comment was to him, I tried to suggest that maybe he needed to look at why she spoke to him in that way. If she'd said that to me, I'd have taken a long hard look at myself. It's not language I've ever heard her use before which would suggest that something major triggered it. He can't look inside though. He just went into victim mentality - "they don't respect me", "I pay all the bills and they just take". I pointed out that respect had to be earned. Not something he understands at all. He thinks respect is earned by him shouting us all down.

sounds exhausting!

The teenage answer to "I pay all the bills" is "Well, I did not ask to be born", have your kids not tried that one yet?

Your DH sounds overwhelmed and unable to cope with having almost grown up children. He is responding badly.

And it is NOT how he'll get respect.

He is shooting himself in the foot badly.

Are you able to overrule him in arguments, or discuss things, or do you give in? (for reference, in our house sometimes I concede DH is right, sometimes it's me and sometimes we find a compromise. The boys know they need a "yes" from both of us before something happens, e.g. teenage expensive paint balling birthday party)

Tessie

re your comments in quote marks-

"He's never been violent in all his anger, millifiori. Not that the mental abuse hurts any less. Sometimes I wish he'd hit me so that I could show someone the bruise as evidence".

He does not have to hit you to hurt you; what he is doing here has been a highly successful campaign already in his own private war against you. Its only a short step between verbal and physical abuse as well. You have evidence of his mental cruelty going back years and I would think he really did ramp up the power and control against you once you were married and again when these children were born. He regards you all as his property.

"I'm going to go on the Freedom course and start squirelling away funds".

Great but saving money takes time and that is something you really do not have the luxury of now. Its simply gives him more time to abuse you all. Your DD will likely call him an arsehole again; its no life for these children either. Their home should be a sanctuary; its currently akin to a warzone.

"I'm going to give myself a year to strengthen my mind and my finances and then make a decision"

No make the decision before then, sooner rather than later is best now. Rip the plaster off asap and expose him for who he really is. Another year of this again gives him more opportunity to abuse you all.

"I'm going to encourage him to be the best he can and hope that somehow he can get some emotional maturity to beat this (I can't see it). If not, I'm going to find a way out".

Hope of the abuser changing and fear (which can be very real)are powerful and do their bit also to keep people within abusive relationships. Those are two of many many reasons why people stay. Its not about him beating this, this is who he really is and is ingrained in his psyche. It is likely too that one or even both his parents are themselves abusive. Look at his parents Tessie; what are they like?. There are clues there in his upbringing.

Tessie

Have now read your reply to me. Good on you for starting the Freedom Programme next week. Do see it through and gain strength from this as well.

Not really surprised to read that his parents argued; they taught him a lot of damaging lessons about relationships and those are not going to be unlearnt. He has learnt that controlling behaviours work for him against you and such men do not change.

Ruby - there's no compromising. I wish! We either do it his way, give in or do it our way and get abuse. I would love a relationship where we could agree to disagree - I'm an appeaser and hate fighting. Unfortunately, that's just not possible.

Attila - your words are scary but you're right. Yes - his mum in particular is emotionally controlling. One year, she didn't get what she felt was enough for mothers day and phoned us in a rage. I answered the phone and got lots of abuse, culminating with her saying that, as far as she was concerned, her son was dead to her! This is what he's learned and he wasn't at all shocked when I told him about it. I was horrified! This is what I'm dealing with. People with no rational understanding of how to speak to others.

If we stay together, will they even want to come back and visit us when they're older? In my experience of having a father like this, the answer is no.

Yep - that's what I feared.

Yes to all of Atilla's comments below.

I'd also add that it's not your responsibility to hang about hoping he'll mature. Ideally we're there in sickness and health, but abuse negates that.

I cannot tell you the relief of not having to put up with this. You get almost accustomed to hunching your shoulders and waking up and getting though another day of it. But it's awful and no-one should have to live like this.

I got divorced when my kids were 11 & 6. I was worried about money, but he (very grudgingly) makes the court ordered payments and it's actually easier as I know where the money goes now.

Making that first step is not easy, but after that it's like the sun has come out after a dark winter.

Do you work over 9 hours a week? Because if you do, you will get financial support in the way of tax credits.

Get yourself out of the marriage. There is seriously no point in getting yourself more financially secure beyond having enough money to rent a flat for a bit.

Seriously, you are better off NOT being financially sorted, and having children young enough that still need care, because you will get a larger share of the house. You are where you are financially right now because of him, let him deal with the consequences.

If we stay together, will they even want to come back and visit us when they're older?
No. And your children will not want their future children anywhere near him. Sorry.
OP you seem so caring, able and eloquent, I'm convinced you can turn this around and start to really enjoy the rest of your life. When I was single I found full time work as an office manager/PA/EA and mostly really enjoyed it, what line of work are you in?
Financial independence is power.

Hi OP - I could have written every word of your post. My scenario is a carbon copy. The only thing that changed here is that he really realised he had to change the way he behaved to our teenagers as it was clear to him that he was losing them. He always said that he was the parent and I was just a friend to them. This was not true at all, I just show them the respect and space I think a teenager needs and I get it in return. Things are better for them which is good, but his anger towards me has increased ten fold and I have decided, like you to leave. I get exactly the same as you, I pay all the bills (he believes this is a licence to behave how he likes). I do work and contribute as I no longer use the joint card for anything. I am like you just about to embark on the Freedom Programme, but have all the same fears about money and fighting an impossible fight. But fear for my health if I stay. Are we allowed to make private contact on here (sorry I am new to this invaluable forum) I would love to speak with you if you are willing? x

My parents divorced when I was young. As a result there is one place I can go to without stirring up all sorts of crap again.

You've done well getting professional help. Keep up the good work.

You should not have to put up with this. Life is too short.

You need to tell him that you want to divorce him. It MIGHT make him see sense, but I doubt it. My DH has shown similar behaviour, his favourite was "get out of my house". It is by no means the whole story but we are now splitting up, and of course only now he is beginning to treat me and DC like human beings. Some men can only learn the hard way.

This really is so very helpful. Thank you everyone. Vanellope - I'm in a similar line of work to you and I've been looking at PA roles. The kids are older now, so I'm not doing school runs. That frees me up to find more full time work. Once the finances feel stronger, I'm hoping I'll feel stronger to find my own path. I'm not perfect. I just want a life free of this. All my other relationships are strong and healthy. This is the only one that's just not right.