this evening in the custy marriage<<its a huge offload thing>>

[custy]

Had day off work cos I worked Saturday. he?s not through the door 5 mins when I say that I will need to get money for marriage guidance ? fuckin ell how much? about £75 says I - two weeks - ? fuckin ell,?..? ? oh I thought you would have known? says I jokily, ?as you?ve got a handle on the money ( har har?)? mock voice (me) ? oh we don?t need to talk about money because I know it all?

He shouts.

I tell him he?s a knob head.

He goes watches tv. And dd goes on the computer - dh has a go at her because she?s moved into another room as soon as he sat down - prolly because she knew damned well he would turn the telly over - anyway - so he says ? what?s your problem its not like you?ve done piss all today!? at which point I come in from kitchen and say ?are you intimating piss alls been done?? he says
? I wasn?t talking to you - I was talkin? to her?

I carry on with the tea I?m making, then tell him he will have to finish it off as I have to et ready for marriage guidance ? right? he says - I get ready, and go.

Whilst there talked about how he wont try and make an effort - we don?t talk about real stuff - we are skirting around things and quite frankly he cant be arsed.

So get home he puts my hot tea out and a cup of coffee, we don?t speak he sits out of my eye line and not in a spot out of the five remaining which is conducive t o conversation in anyway

He tells me about the spec for the new contract - I listen to mitre joints and other workman stuff

Its forced
Its intermittent.
Its dull
Its certainly not the issue

?right then!? says he what dya want to do? - watch tv, puter take dog for a walk?
? watch tv? says I he goes into living room takes the remote control off dd and of course she moans she?s in the middle of watching something. ? fuckinell can?t please these kids? says he ? may I suggest ? says I ? that you were in the wrong.?
?she?s watching two programmes?
?mum its on the ADVERTS!?

I sit there
We sit there
In silence

For ages.
Not speaking
Its not the first time

He slams his hand down on the table grabs his book and says nastily ? I?m going to read? and went off to the bedroom

You see I think he thinks I haven?t tried because he put my tea out - he tried with the small talk, however what?s really going on is that there are some fundamental issues at the core of this marriage - he is ignoring. He is ignoring them and ironically its getting worse - its not going away - after our usual 17 years of rowing we could get up next morning it would all just be forgotten - usually - this isn?t going anywhere

Oh and just so I don?t forget - he has no patience. Still, I tried for what could have been 30 secs to pick up a piece of bacon on my plate ? oh pick it up for god sake? said in that ....I am annoyed?oh shit ...I realise and...end the sentence with a chuckle - kinda way.

We went out at weekend - he got pissed off because of the amount of time I took to line up my pool shots.

Yesterday he has to pick up ds1 and we were watching a film - I pause the film to go in search of my asthma spray - ? you can?t do that,? says he - ? I have to go pick up ds1 there wont be time?
?well need my asthma spray says I? he has face of thunder I start the film and move past him to find my asthma spray - he realises in a split second he was being a twat and says ? I??ll find it - I?ll find it?
? I don?t get it, if your finding it then your missing the movie anyway??
Yes but I?ll see the end?

He has to have last word - I used to fight - he would tell you different and absolutely believe it in his head. Now I?m at the stage that I?m worried that I don?t give a shit

I?m worried I?m not wailing and screaming and crying. Where?s the emotion? I think he wants out - more than one occasion he?s screamed at me ? just say it , just say it? (divorce) but I refuse - I refuse to be that person in history the one he can point at and say ? she ended our marriage?

When it was his actions and inaction that is bringing it to an end.

what we need is an honest discussion and we are both scared. he is working all day tomorrow

i have an evening meeting.

i wont get home until around 10pm - and its too late - and i'm too knackered by that point to have a real discussion.

which means wednesday. by which time i probably wont be as determined.

would each of you writing each other a letter help?

I would certainly wait until the relate sessions are finished before making any decisions. In particular, his session on his own next week might prove interesting to him.

Have you thought of a timeframe by which you will both reach a decision - so that you don't feel trapped in this mess for ever?

I'm sorry Custy - I wouldn;t wish this stuff on my worst enemy

Well Greenday I think in a way it does mean that. ie stop worrying about the 'relationship' per se and start worrying about yourself and if your work on yourself and your own self esteem is sucessful it may well mean that your realtionship will work out because you are happier OR that it won't but that you will be better able to handle the next stage of your life because you will have spent some time sorting yourself out iyswim.

ucm i dont know - is it a cop out if i said - what is love ? would i die for him yes, would i miss him yes, would i mourn for him yes, would i be devestated at him leaving yes.

but then there are other things - i cant stand his day to day personality - the not trying harder to save things. his temper is the greatest thing, the way he speaks to me.
i dont look at other guys seriously at all. in fact the prospect of having to do all that again - or end up old and lonley is one of many cnsideration points for me - not a major one but its there - so no - i dont want to immediaatley go for other people. he was my first love - i was 15 - i wouldnt kow what to do with someone else.

scummy - your right ofcourse. i too am not a happy bunny once asleep.

Custy, haven't really got much useful advice for you and it feels wrong because you've given me loads of advice about my teens. I always feel you come across as the strong person and your post tonight reads differently. It's hard (imo) to be the strong one all the time and if you're like me, feel that I'm the only one with the finances, the kids' diaries, dentist appts etc etc and sometimes I want to be relieved of the stress and be looked after. Night time is not a good time for men ususally, they're alseep or been drinking. Pick a time when he's unable to escape, go out maybe somewhere public so you have to talk not shout and keep strong. I think you probably know deep down what you want/need and you don't want to be the one to say it, whichever way it is. It's hard when there's resentment because every little thing grates and the kids must be noticing. Have they said anything or are they old enough to keep out of things?
That's a lot of words for someone who couldn't think of anything to say

Keep ranting/talking because we're like a consicience, you can talk and we'll answer back but it's your decision. Also sometimes outsiders point sof view can help nwith the thinking process. I think your dh is scared and men hate confrontation (on the whole) because then they have to articulate feelings which sometimes is hard for them to do (not having a go in general).

Marriage guidance can help I think but it touches raw nerves that have been hidden and it might have to get worse before it gets better.

AND remember, we're here.

thanks jolly mum i like you in fact i saved mumsnet a favourite in 2003 at work on a certain thread - so everytime i am at work and i open up the thread - there you are!

Custy, I like you too (oh and what thread?) HopeI wasn't drunk and disorderly and being rude

Those answers are from someone who loves another IMO. There is something I want to say but am hesitating as I don't want to be jumped on. You are not going to change him that much, you two have grown up together and he really really isn't going to change much. But then, the grass is NEVER greener on the other lawn.

I think Carmenere had an answer for you. Deal with your feelings and give yourself a time frame in which to feel more positive about things. I dunno. 6 months. If you still feel the same then the best thing for both of you is probably to split. Good luck.

thank you

custy - those things about him that bug you now, did they always bug you or weren't they there in the past?

Oh Custy

Yes, I've been there, like Soapbox...that ghastly slipping away and decay, and that feeling WTF is going on, why are we here?

Huge commiserations, my love.

how long does your marriage guidance thing last for?

if you can't talk to him properly till Wednesday - earmark this thread to reiterate determination! - this may be a good thing in that you can think of what you want to say

timeframe is good idea - 6 months or whatever - then it seems like you are doing seomthing

how are your children?

sorry to read this custy

xx

Morning Custy, how are you today? I can talk a bit if you want, not working and kids at school! Mind you, have piles of "business" paperwork to do, adverts etc. I'll keep checking in...

Oh god custy that sounds just dire How can he sleep when there is so much at stake?You say you will mourn and miss him but how do you know until he's gone?You might really feel liberated from all the crap and not miss it at all.It does seem to be time for a serious talk warts and all with or without a counsellor present.Reading between the lines you sound exhausted with it all and maybe have outgrown him.You are a smart cookie in a big rut we have all been there.Tell me to sod off if you like but have a friend going through something similar atm and she is almost out the other side xx If you fancy a chat and a skinful; you know where I am

Custy-you a wise,kind and most of all humerous person,I feel awful you are going through this.
I was in a similar situation with DP and she ended up virtually having an affair-it took this to make me realise what we had and how I didn't want it to end.
It took a lot of talking-we went away to do most of it but there had to be a willingness on both sides.
Any chance you can get away,just the two of you so there is no running away from the discussions?
It is probably the most painful thing I ever did but it did work and we are now better for it.
Am sorry I have no better advice.

really sorry to read that custy. agree with carmenere's sil or whoever it was.

Councelling is useful, but slow. Are you a book person? do you find 'self help' books uefsul or a pile of shite?
If you're willing to consider, someone recommended this book to me, and has lots of interesting thought provoking stuff, suggestions, different angles/viewpoints, practical stuff to try. I'm finding it useful, tho of course it's not a magic wand, it's called 'divorce busting' by michel weiner_davis. Maybe you could get hold of a copy and read in conjunction with marriage guidance to sort of give clearer more rounded view and other suggestions. At least he's willing to go..

Best of luck. Sounds shit.

ta all,

i think the crux of the mater is this. is i wnted to, i could save this marriage. I dont think self help books are shite. i just dont think i need to be armed with another strategy

i want him to be interested, and fight, and suggest - going for a talk somewhere, read a book, do some research, take an interest.

unless he can show that he actually gives a shit - thats he's going to make some effort on a strategic level if you like - then i quite frankly can't get out of the 'fuck you' frame of mind.

its not even the minutae of the day that pisses me off - its the big picture stuff.

and i'll eat mi own arse befre i'll 'nag' him to save his own marriage.

No you most definitely shouldn't have to nag your dh to save his marriage (in fact by definition it probably can't be done). Put the energy into yourself instead. You can leave him if you want to, you don't have to stay with someone who is not responding to you. But why not try totally pulling back from the crisis and concentrate on making yourself happy for a while(if that is being selfish, so be it). Maybe try to accept things that you can't change (ie someone else's personalty).
Concentrate on the things you can(ie the rest of your life). Maybe if he sees(or just senses) you getting on with things and thinking of a new life with or without him, he might buck up his attitude. A bit of ambivilance would do no harm.

i see what your saying carmenare - i do - and to some extent i agree with it but i just can't see how it works day to day.

i have no spare money to join clubs or have an independant soical life. get home at 6pm then what - what do happy people do? i just can't be happy doing all the chores becuase it makes me happy at the end for a moment - til i realise ive been a mug.
i cant be happy sitting in the same room with someone who barely speaks to me
i cant be happy sitting in another room either

would i be happy if he left. no.

so i cant see how it works.

I don't know if this helps but it seems to me that you are both taking for granted the fact that things will struggle on.

You need a break form each other. Know what it's like to miss each other. You need him to miss you.
Suggest you need time apart, you need him to leave and give you an opportunity to find what makes you tick.

And he really, really needs to miss you and (a Kick up the Backside)

Dragging on like this will destroy whatever remnants you have left within your relationship.

Please ignore me, if this completely off the mark.

Been lurking here.
Can relate custy.

It is a mental shift custy not necessarily a physical one. I am trying it myself atm and I'm finding it is working.
I too feel like an unpaid skivvy, but when I do house work atm it is so that I am keepng my home nice for my sense of pride and self esteem(my house remains fairly messy tbh) But for example last night the kitchen is in a heep and I started to clean it whilst dp is on the computer. So instead of simmering angrily I asked him nicely to help me, he said Oh I'll do it later' (ie I won't and if I do I'll do it badly) so I said no I want to do it with you. So he stood up and helped me. He diddn't want to but I calmly diddn't leave him an option iyswim(he is a lazy fucker). I may well leave him yet, but I am going to try to be a bit less emotional and work on myself being happier for a while yet.

Look all I am saying is that there is more than one way to skin a cat. If you feel like you are banging your head off a brick wall, yet you don't want to leave, stop banging your head. Start concentrating on yourself.

sorry to butt in, but that is good advice carmenere......you have summed up what is happening in our house....i have wasted so much energy on dh
Now i'm concentrating on me.

Keeping me sane and saving our marriage

Oh custy I am so sorry you are going through this.

Please don't blame him too much for falling asleep - when I had a complete breakdown over the course of 48 hours last year I went into the bathroom to wipe snot off my face and came back after 20 minutes of sobbing to find dh fast asleep - this was just after I'd finally confessed to him that I was planning how to kill myself on a daily basis. I was LIVID. But it didn't mean he idn't care about me, just that he couldn't deal with the emotions and sleep kind of took over. I have now forgiven him (and recovered myself).

I hate being one of those women who justify mens crapness by saying it's just a mans way, but sometimes I think it is. That's not to excuse him, but to explain him. Men in general do seem to be more solution based, and if he can't see an easy solution maybe burying his head is his way of coping? Just because he isn't constantly opening up to you about how devestated he feels about the breakdown of your marriage doesn't mean he's not feeling the emotions - he could just be crap at expressing them.

Can I suggest games? Board or card I mean, not sexual. I know it sounds weird, but it's somehing you can do together, and is quite conducive to talking. My mum bought dh a backgammon set for his birthday (God knows why) and we actually had a really fun evening learning to play together. And my lovely but emotionally repressed dh spoke to me about how he felt about his Dad dying far more than he ever had when under pressure to do so.