Does every sociopath show every single trait or red flag?

[misskz88]

From personal experience in past relationships I have been cluing myself recently on red flags, warning signs and listening to my intuition. I have come to the conclusion that my own behaviours and lack of self esteem have often led me to attract men with insecure non-committal, sociopathic tendencies. I still have a lot of work to do on myself to build my self esteem, confidence, and my standards.

I don't believe every guy I have dated has fallen into these categories, some have simply been normal, great guys who didn't work out for whatever reason. But there is a pattern, and I want to learn from it and break it.

However, I am am finding it really hard to differentiate between what is sometimes 'normal' behaviour i.e the occasional brag about success and what crosses over into slightly more concerning territory.

Will a sociopath show every single sign, or will they show others in abundance and none of others?

My question has arisen from one of the last guys I dated, showing some but not all red flags and me ignoring my gut instinct and trying to reason things - All could probably be explained in some ways, but I had this nagging feeling at the beginning of 'everything just seems a little too perfect. I just have this feeling he possibly had traits, even if he was not full blown. Is that possible... Is it on a sliding scale? Either way, unfortunately it has left its burn.

Can anyone help?!

well my counsellor thinks that narcisissm is a scale and we're all on it to some degree.

But yes I would say that it's your own inability to apply boundaries (for whatever reason) that keeps you in a relationship with a narcissist or a sociopath where other, less damaged, women would run a mile. (I'm similar by the way, so not criticising you!).

I've been thinking the same thing. I'm just not sure I could spot the red flags.

@WavingNotDrowning I am glad to know I am not alone in this.

I certainly recognise where mine stems from: loving but almost dysfunctional upbringing, my own personality traits, my own mental health, previous early relationships with men etc....

There were several things that were just 'too good' in the beginning about this guy. Maybe he was a normal guy and our boundaries and personalities just clashed, but I don't think I have ever looked at behaviour and thought 'hmmmm something is fishy' unless something has peeked my interest if that makes sense? Overall, I am not outwardly of an anxious or cautious disposition, I generally give people benefit of the doubt unless I have reason to believe otherwise. Also, other guys I have cried over and tried to justify and then reasoned with 'asshole' or 'just not right for me' and have carried on my merry way.

What set it off is the the fact that after a heart to heart, a very level headed, honest and close friend labelled him as 'trouble' and to run.... I couldn't get my head around why she felt that way. Then I researched and did my own reflecting, and suddenly something clicked in my head.

It has opened a bit of a wound I want to heal for my own well-being. I just do not know where to start.

Theres an excellent book call "The Human Magnet Syndrome" written by a guy called Ross Rosenburg.

Basically he explains that we are all on a spectrum. At one end the are Co-Dependents and at the other are Narcissists/Sociopaths. If you are high on the narcissistic scale you are usually attracted someone who is high on the Co-Dependent scale and visa versa..kind of like balancing out each others personalities/traits etc and subconsciously we are automatically drawn to one another.

People who display Co-dependent tendencies/traits have weak boundaries, don't like saying no, upsetting people, like to please others, put others before them selves, see themselves as fixing others. This usually as a result of the way their parents were and how they were brought up, sometimes their parents were narcissistic, alcoholics and to the co-dependent this seems normal.

Sociopaths and Narcissists have similar dysfunctional childhoods, but these manifest themselves in entitled, selfish, manipulative behaviour and lack empathy etc...

If you've been in a relationship with a sociopath and escaped only then do you recognise what you've been through and can look for answers, validation etc..Co-dependent people do have the ability to recover and learn to work on boundaries etc, and the fact that you can recognise that you have been attracted to a certain type of person is a good thing. This allows you to work on yourself and set boundaries, find out that it's ok to say 'no'...

Sociopaths and Narcs are so self absorbed and entitled that they fail to recognise that they may need therapy and so they often go from relationship to relationship following the same patterns.

They Love-bomb there victims -This is what you describe as everything seems so perfect, things happen very quickly, the appear to 'Get You" be your soul mate etc..It's all an act to hook you in.

They Devalue you after a while, usually subtle manipulation, make you fell insecure, gas light you.

Finally the Discard If you discover what they are, call them out, leave them they discard you with great ease, like you never existed, find a new partner really quickly.

Sometimes they can try and get you back by "Hoovering" you...everything is done to draw supply (attention) from you, good or bad it doesn't matter to them, they need this supply like a drug. Maybe see it as the good attention (Love and praise) they get from you is like pure heroin. If they can't get this they'll make do with negative (Rage, provocation) attention = Methadone.

Recognising that you seem to be drawn to these types is the first step in your recovery and allows you to fix your picker. See the red flags and run for the hills if you see them.

I recognise I am co-dependant. and had one of the upbringings you describe. and have bad boundaries. But I am so scared I cannot spot the problem until I am in too deep.
which has obviously happened.
I get the lovebombing as a concept, but I am not sure how aware I am of it happening to me. if that makes sense

@justbreathing it makes perfect sense...

But I am so scared I cannot spot the problem until I am in too deep.
which has obviously happened.

If you are with a narc, they know this. That's why they lovebomb, they get you so involved and that before you know it you are in too deep. That commitment you have given could be financially or emotionally, and as you have trouble setting boundaries they manipulate the situation to their advantage. "She couldn't leave me, we have a house together...she isn't strong enough to end the relationship and lose the house" or "She could leave me, I've devalued her so much that her self esteem i rock bottom and she thinks no one else would possibly want her"

With regards to the love bombing. I read that if something feels too good to be true..it usually is.

Thanks @mickeyblueeyes
I get what you're saying. I guess I probably liked the lovebombing. I wanted to be "the one" I end up wanting to fix someone and help them etc.
I'm a bloody stereotype!!
I am also doing counselling and working on myself. But I am utterly petrified that I don't get the "niggles" that other people do.

@mickyblueyes ........................ People who display Co-dependent tendencies/traits have weak boundaries, don't like saying no, upsetting people, like to please others, put others before them selves, see themselves as fixing others. Nail on head there - it really hits home seeing it typed by someone else. The only difference is, I was very fortunate to have two extremely loving, kind and caring parents and I absolutely adore them. Perhaps I instead mimic their behaviour, rather than accept what I grew up with as there was absolutely no narcissism etc?

@justbreathing - I am the same, I know the signs, but I have ignored my guy in the past, or find I am in too deep by the time my the alarm bells ring. I am working on it.

micky that makes perfect sense to me. I did have a difficult upbringing (possibly by a narcissist mother) and have problems putting my needs first or even identifying them.

However, I agree it's possible to learn from your experiences. I'd also recommend a book called the Nice Girl Syndrome by Beverley Engel. This explains why some women are unable to put boundaries in place and helps you with strategies to do this. One reason is that you are brought up by narcissistic parents but there are other reasons too OP which may apply to you.

Perhaps its more about becoming a high value woman rather than looking deeper into dysfunctional men. [although i was the same and found it all fascinating]

I found reading Matthew Hussey [who is a bit meh] really improved my confidence and showed me how to differentiate between good and bad behaviour.

@wavingnotdrowning thank you I will check those books out.

I would also describe myself as quite an emotional and intuitive person. I find it very hard to switch off, and when looking at my personality type i.e Myers 16 personalities, I am a through and through 'protagonist'. It definitely exacerbates / goes hand in hand with my co-dependency streak I would say.

@rizlett Absolutely! I am working on seeing myself as high value, with self esteem etc! Excellent point :) I also quite like watching MH, perhaps I need to recap!

I didn't spot any red flags with my ex but I had no experience of narcs so I was blissfully unaware such arseholes actually existed. Were I to come across someone similar now my alarm bells would be screeching.
After counselling I realised that my boundaries are rubbish, I'm not codependent (I don't think so anyway) but I do find it difficult to say no and my ex totally exploited this. He still tries to but I completely aware of his inability to respect my boundaries so I am incredibly firm regarding them.
I am currently watching in awe as he lovebombs his latest victim- it's terrifying.

@misskz88

The only difference is, I was very fortunate to have two extremely loving, kind and caring parents and I absolutely adore them.

Yes me too. I'm not saying all people who show some co-dependency were brought up by narc's, it's just a generalisation of what I've learnt and read. Maybe they show some co-dependency traits themselves and you've learnt similar behaviours? Maybe you just learnt from an early age that you like the feeling you got when someone was pleased with you? I think just the fact you can recognise you need to set stronger boundaries is a good thing.

@WavingNotDrowning

One reason is that you are brought up by narcissistic parents but there are other reasons too OP which may apply to you.

Good point, and I totally agree with this. My initial post was a very broad statement, I'm not saying all co-dependents have Narc parents. My parents are wonderful kind loving people. I can see some of my co-dependent traits in both my parents, my dear old mum would do anything for anyone, but she also good at setting boundaries. This whole subject is fascinating and there are so much to read and learn.

I can't help but notice that once I have pulled back from the nice girl and co dependency (and at 55 I should know better) my H doesn't like it , it's as if I should always just be pleasant and go along with stuff regardless of their behaviour

@mari50

I am currently watching in awe as he lovebombs his latest victim- it's terrifying.

I found my ex's love-bombing extraordinary and couldn't get my head round it, i also find it highly amusing witnessing it and laugh at the latest victim of it all. One thing they do is "Mirror" There latest victim, again to make themselves out as the perfect soul mate.

My ex suddenly developed a passion for Coldplay having never bought any of their music. Probably couldn't name a single song of theirs, yet now travels the country watching them play.

Has suddenly started cycling, never showed any interest when I suggested it when we were together. Now they enters competitions and is never off the bike apparently.

Loves football all of a sudden, travels the globe to watch games. Absolutely detested it when with me.

Has gone vegan.

Why? Because the new partner does all these things

I would also add that co-dependent people tend to have good qualities, such as honesty, integrity, show real love towards others and empathy.

Narcs/Sociopaths lack most of these qualities, so take some comfort from the fact that the emptiness inside a narc is what they seek goodness in you to fill up the empty insecure void they have within themselves.

I am co dependent for sure.
But it does make me feel sad, that I do have the qualities you say and yet they just prey on them.
This is what scares me, I want to help people and be kind and have empathy. I can't undo that side of my personality
But I fear being dragged in again

@Ginlovinglady I feel the same as you. I feel that if I attract these types I need to have my guard up and my wits about me, and at times I find it quite hard to relax.... To an extent I do and I AM strict with my boundaries, what I say and what is acceptable when I first meet someone. Until I have any feelings, I am cut throat about who stays and who goes, but once those feelings are there... I really struggle to maintain the boundaries. I guess they see through the facade regardless and know how to work everything to their advantage?

It is really interesting reading other peoples experiences and I am always amazed at how extreme some of the behaviour seems. I guess the reason I have been left reeling from this previous guy is that everything was very subtle and I could not quite out whether that was just actually normal behaviour and hope for potential in the situation, if that makes sense?

One of many example as it has been mentioned above, he didn't love bomb me to any extreme and he didn't drop the 'L' word, but there were quite extravagant dates and gestures (flashing the cash a bit) and he made it very clear early on that he saw things potentially becoming 'long term'. That in itself did have me wary, but as he showed me through actions in the beginning, I softened to it as I had no reason not to trust him. He would quite often drop remarks about how his life plans took into consideration 'us' as a priority, and that from the beginning he felt really comfortable around me to discuss his insecurities, his past etc. To me, that could be considered quite normal under the right circumstance and chemistry.... Or is that where my view is skewed and needs retraining?

He and the vibe he gave off suddenly turned once I let my guard drop and said 'actually I do feel this way about you too'. Everything suddenly had a calculated feel to it, he was distant,cold and withdrew. However I know some people will do this anyway when they see things coming to an end because they almost want to soften the blow.

So how do you separate that of normal behaviour and a normal person, to that of a manipulator / sociopath, because sometimes for me, the lines feel blurred and sit so closely together?! I am struggling with it!

MISSkz88

I see you're a protagonist. That's ENFJ right? That's what I am. We are very intuitive and unfortunately I agree with you it's a bad personality type in combination with parents who were neglectful because you have the double whammy of being unable to identify your own needs never mind meet them as Waving says, and also, being too attuned to the needs of those around you and in the case of a narcissist, those needs are relentless and extreme.

I do spot the narc types now. Those men who erode your boundaries with bad moods, aggression, gas lighting, manipulations etc..... But as wavingnotdrowning knows, I still found it difficult to maintain my boundaries and ended up in an unlabelled, uncomitted relationship with a nicer man. That was because I understood narcissism and co-dependency but I hadn't really grasped what it was to have a boundary and to 'honour' what you want out of life or a relationship.

The Beverly Engels book is good. I really must dig it out again.

It can't surely be as simple as dropping a 'no' into the equation early on in the relationship, can it?

Manipulators will just not respect that 'no' and will try and convert it to a 'yes' or make you feel bad whereas a genuine whole person is perfectly fine and ok with a 'no'.

If so, I just need to keep practicing my 'no's' - I guess that's part of the problem too.

I find saying no impossible
And I always give someone the benefit of the doubt.
Maybe I should just stop doing that

I'm an enfj or p (I vary) too

@St01c yes it is ENFJ (extroverted, intuitive, feeling, judging). I scored quite highly on turbulent too, probably like other protagonists. I think that's reflective of the fact I am led by my emotions and instinct.

Protagonists tend to be tolerant, social, intuitive, altruistic and reliable, however they are overly idealistic, too selfless and sensitive, are prone to fluctuating self esteem and struggle with tough decisions.

These last few days have been a light bulb moment with regards to my personality traits and the reasons for some of my failed relationships. I just wasn't wise to 'why I keep attracting the idiots' before now..... It is all starting to become a little less merky, but I am terrified of the work and inner soul searching I now need to do.