My sister is a witch - long

[chirpygirl]

Background - As a child my father was very abusive (mentally and physically) to myself and my sisters. I found out a few years ago that my mum knew nothing of the worst physical abuse, she knew we were smacked and she knew he was a bastard but that was all. He also mentally abused her for the 30 years they were married.
She divorced him around the time she found out how bad it was for us for that and some other reasons.
I don't have a relationship with my father now but talk to my mum all the time.

One of my sisters confronted my father and he denied anythig of the sort ever happened, so for some reason she has decided to blame my mum for not stopping it. She has told my mum she never wants to see her or speak to her again and is refusing to answer her calls/letters etc. She has a daughter who is 10 and we know she is poisoning her against my mum and the rest of us (as we are sticking up for my mum)
My mum is understandably distraught by this and can't understand why my sister is being like this when the rest of us say she is a drama queen and talking crap.

My problem is she won't allow any of us to contact her, we get hung up on and ignored. I want to do something to reconcile them as, well, I do, but am at a loss as to what.
I am going to visit my mum in a few weeks and my sister lives about 20 minutes from her so should I just turn up?
I am 3 months pregnant and would have my 13 month old DD in tow....

Should we just allow her to cut us out? part of me thinks we should as she has always caused rows and arguments but a bigger part of me is upset at not being able to see my niece.

Sorry for rant, needed to get it all out.

thanks for listening

If she wants to cut you out of her life you can't not allow; it's her choice. Maybe she has her own issues to work through from the abuse and needs time to do that. I'd give her some space and time to think things through.

i think you have to leave her alone- if she refuses phone calls, you could just be starting an altercation by turning up- do you want your child to see that?

she's a grown up, and whatever you think of her, it's her right to not want anything to do with you all.

i think you are being unkind tbh ...a witch?

is your sister old or younger than you, possibly she feels that because your father was in denial she did not see him as teh sam ethreat he was when you were all younger adn can not reconcile how your mum could stand up to him as an adult if she (sister)has done so. Also do you know what your fatehr said to her, by labeling her adrama queen adn talking crap it is less likely she would want to be back in contact you need to understand how she feels about it as she needs to understand how you feel adn to respect that although you want thro similar experiences you reactions/ perceptions may be different. Also you need to focus on your relationship with her and not interfere between her and mum (hard as it wil be)

Living a life of abuse (any kind) is never easy & I think you never get over it. I think you learn to live with it best you can. And you find coping strategies. One of those strategies is finding a person to blame for how you feel & for what you went through.

Your dad denying it just makes your sister look for another person to hold responsible. Another person to shift the blame to. As your sister cannot (and should not) shoulder the blame herself.

Who better than your mum, because we believe our parents should be there in our hour of need. By not stopping it, in your sister's eyes, your mum has let her down, badly. She needs to come to terms with this once again.

Your sister needs time & understanding from you. She needs space to tackle those thoughts & memories again. It will now all be fresh in her mind & painful, as she has opened up the old wound by confronting your dad.

How very wonderful of you to 'stick up for mum'...but who is (and ever did) 'stick up' for your sister? How do you know she is poisoning her daughter against you all, when you have no contact with her?

Give her time. Give her space. She is your sister & she is hurting..deep down hurt, not just a scratch...

Very spiteful of you to call her a witch, tho. Isn't that just another form of abuse?

everybody reacts to information in different ways, my brother, sister and I were also from a violent and abusive home, the thing is when someone is being mentaly abused you end up believing the grass is blue even though you know its green IYKWIM.

It would have been very difficult for your mother. Obviously your father has latched onto your sisters weaker side, due to the mental abuse its easy done.

My sister has a picture in her head of how she wanted life to be and wants it so much she actually believes it to be true, very sad but a coping method. Whereas I remember every detail and respect my mother to the hightest degree, to me she is a very strong woman to be respected who did her best in a bad situation & I admire her stregnth.

Its more difficult for you with little ones involved. I would have it out with her she needs to know the past is the past and you need to concentrate on the future for the sake of the little ones.

Message withdrawn

If she wants to cut you out then that is her decision. I do think you sound a little harsh, she was abused and your mum didn't notice how bad it was. I'd be pretty pissed off tbh, I am sure your mum didn't see what was happening but I would find it difficult to accept that she hadn't realised the extent of the abuse personally.

You are obviously more understanding of her and your sister isn't.

Okay, I understand that calling her a witch is spiteful, but I will not apologise for it I'm afraid.
She has reduced my mother to tears over this while my mother has her own guilt to come to terms with over the situation. I do think she is being like this simply because until my father denied it ever happened (and now I can see removed someone she could blame) she never blamed my mother, this has all happened within the last year.

I know her DD is being told things as the last time I saw her she said some things to me about my mum which she could only have got from my sister (that she doesn't want to see her because of .....)
I know exactly what happened between my father and my sister as we had it worse than the rest of my family.

HIllary, thank you for your comments, I think unless you have been there it is very hard to judge, the way your sister is coping is exactly how another sister is dealing with our situation, she just refuses to believe it happened, even though records beg to differ.

Thanks for comments, it all helps me make a decision. I definately don't want my daughter, or hers, to see or hear a fight between us but I don't know what else I can do, I miss her too.

'I would find it difficult to accept that she hadn't realised the extent of the abuse personally.'

That's interesting littlesarah as this is exactly my sister's point, and shows me she is not the only person who might think this, but believe me, he was a very, very clever man, and the times something could be noticed it was explained away by other factors.

Not your business imo and you will make matters worse if you try to 'make' your sister talk to your mum, it's her prerogative to not speak to her.

It all sounds horrible but if I were you I would write to your sister saying you don't want to get involved in the row between her and your mum but that you love her and would very much like to see her. And then see what she says.

If she tries to discuss your mum keep saying "that's for you and mum to sort out" - this will work. It's hard I know but I do think you have to let family members have their own relationships and rows develop (in my family anyway) when you gwet involved in stuff that isn't strictly your problem.

I don't want to 'make' her speak to my mum, I would never force her to. I just want to be able to speak to her and clear her mind about it so that she can go to my mum herself if she wants.

The problem I am having is that of the rest of my siblings I am the only one who fully remembers and admits what happened. so if she is to speak to anyone it has to be me.

DH agrees with most of you in that I have to leave her to it but she's my sister, I don't want her to feel like this and cut herself of from everyone because of her coping strategy. We were alone through most of her childhgood and she is alone now and I want to help her.

Am crying now, didn't realise how upset I would get over this. I just want to make her feel better.

Then send her a letter/email.

Tell her you know how she feels, tell her you want to help, tell her you feel the same. Tell her that she knows where you are if she wants to talk, but that you need someone to talk to, too. Tell her you miss her. No blame, no judgement, no names. Just I hurt too, lets try & help each other. Tackle your past & your emotions together & then when you think she is ready, help her understand that mum is sufferiing too & needs her daughter. But don't think she will snap out of it because her mum is hurting, she is too focused on her pain right now. I think you all are. She needs to know that she is allowed to hurt & not hide it, because mum is hurting too.

Then leave it. I think you are going to have to pour your heart out to her & leave the ball in her court.

And you are crying because you hurt & because you care. I really don't think you meant to call her a witch. I think you are hitting out as you feel a bit abandoned in your hour of need.

crirpygirl - i come from a disturbed family background and have been through a time similar to yours, but some years ago. my siblings are either in mental institutions or have moved far away - it really was bad. but i have one sister who lives quite near. she, like your sister, cut herself off from the rest of the family, apart from allowing our parents about 1 hour a week to see the gcs. this caused a lot of bad feeling, but i've had to accept that that is her way of coping with the past. give her time and write her a letter, telling her that you're there for her, and you'd still like to see her and your niece. my sister lets me see her sometimes now and we get on well - but we do not discuss the past. if she ever wants to talk about it i will be very careful in what i say, because she can't cope with it.
also, what was useful for me and might be in your situation - i try to be kind to my parents but keep my distance somewhat.

Thanks for all your comments guys, DD and I went for a walk and I feel a bit clearer now and have made a decision.

I am going to write to her, enclosing some pics as she hasn't seen DD in nearly a year, I am not even sure if she knows I am pregnant as I had to text her but she never answers her phone and may have deleted it. I don't think I will put anything about how I feel in this letter as I just want her to realise that I don't want to talk to her because of that, I just want to see her IYSWIM.

When I visit my mum she is actually going away for the day with my bro so I will tell her that we will be at a loose end and does she want to come to the beach with us and her DD.

I do think she needs to talk about it but I don't want to frighten her off by getting too deep too fast, she is not good at sharing her feelings and never has been. I think if she comes for the day at least one of us will still be in contact which hopefully means that in time she can open up to me but I am going to wait until she is ready.

thanks again for your help, I love MN at times like this when I can't ask anyone in RL for help as they are either too close to the situation or have no idea about my childhood.

Sounds like a great plan. Good Luck!

I donT think your mum didnt know about the abuse. At the very least, why wasnT she approachable enough for you to tell her about it? That is all it should have taken... "MUm, Dad smacked me really hard etc etc", and your mum would have been shocked and protected you from it...if what you are saying is really the case. So of course your mum knew what was going on. Even <span class="italic">teachers</span> can tell if a child is being abused. Your sister isnt blaming your mum for the abuse. Shes blaming your dad, and she has rightly confronted him about it. Shes blaming your mum for not caring enough to put a stop to it. Often that is more hurtful when a mother does this than the actual abuse itself. It sounds like your mum didn`t want to know. And it sounds like she has turned the focus onto her abuse by your dad and her problems. Classic toxic family.

"Even teachers can tell if a child is being abused".

No they cannot.

I hope your siblings find it within themselves to go to the police over his abusive treatment. He should not be allowed to get away with this. This would be one way of taking the power he still has back from him.

I really hope you never directly told your sister she was a drama queen and talking crap. You all have your own memories; I don't think it is correct for you to assume that you fully know what happened. Any denials of the abuse just helps your Dad even further and gives him yet more power and control. This is what abuse is about.

Am not totally surprised to read that your sister no longer wants to talk with her Mother; she was the only adult who could have done something but did not for all sorts of reasons. She was scared of him too; this man has poisoned this entire family unit.

I dont mean teachers always know. I mean that some sensitive teachers can suspect that a child does not have a happy home. So surely a <span class="italic">mother</span> should suspect abuse of her own child...unless shes too downtrodden or scared (or in some cases self-centred) to change the situation. Even if this is the case it does NOT mean that she is innocent. She is guilty of standing back and letting it happen to her child. The mother may believe that the abuse of her husband against her was worse than the way he abused her daughter, but the fact that her daughter was a vulnerable child means that it is likely her daughter suffered incredibly by the fact she turned a blind eye to the abuse (preferring to concentrate on her own hurt than to admit her daughter`s pain even until the present day).

The human capacity for denial is amazing. Some people are even able to deny things that happened directly to them - like being hit - it didn't really happen, it was an accident, he won't do it again etc. Easier to do that with an incident you didn't actually see, with a child the only witness.

Sakura, I am going to respond to your posts very carefully. If anything I write comes out wrong, I apologise, I just (for some reason) feel the need to explain my situation a bit more so you can maybe understand.
I do appreciate your comments as it is a big learning curve for me how people outside an abusive situation read things.

My mother did not realise the worst of it, she knew that he hit us but as I stated in my OP she was also abused by him and was a classic downtrodden wife.
None of us could tell her anything as he threatened to hurt her if we did. A child's love for a mother is a strange thing and I don't think that is right but at the time I would rather have taken it myself than see my only protector hurt..
My mother left my father the instant she found out how bad it had been.

Also, none of my many teachers from the age of 4 until I was 17 noticed that I was in this situation.

Attila: I would never say anything like that to my sister (re: the drama queen thing,, or the witch comment either) I just find it easier to get it all out of my system on here where it cannot hurt my family's feelings.

Chirpygirl, thank you for acknowledging my comments. I donT know the whole situation. Its just that I always put "red alert" on when I hear of a mother and siblings "ganging up" against one sibling because of something that sibling has apparently done. It always strikes me that in these cases, the mother isnT playing her proper role of peacekeeper between the siblings. This usually means that she is quite focused on herself and her own problems. My heart goes out to the isolated sibling because of how lonely she must feel, especially if she has suffered some kind of abuse in childhood. I mean, when is she ever going to be properly protected, looked after by her mother?
I think your mums place is to help heal your sisters hurt, but your sister doesnt have to help your mum heal, because your mum is the <span class="italic">mother</span>. Your mum can do this by 1] acknowledging your sisters anger and hurt and 2] putting your sister above herself by NOT trying to elicit sympathy from other members of the family and letting them say your poor, lonnely sister is a "drama queen" or "talking crap". She is neither of these things, but thats not for me to tell you. Thats your mum`s place to tell you this.

Fair point sakura, but it is not my mum saying these things about my sister, that's all me!

My mum is upset precisely because of the fact she couldn't/didn't help when we were younger and wants to help now but my sister is cutting us out, this is why I am so upset, we (myself and all my siblings) are trying everything to stay in touch with her, and I would never repeat to her some of the things I have said on here, but she refuses to speak to us on the phone, answer the door or respond to letters/emails, even ones that just say fancy a coffee or a chat.

It's so frustrating for me as I know she must be feeling so many things and I want to help but I think I have to wait until she lets us help her.

I don't feel we are ganging up on her as she is the one who has suddenly, with no warning, refused to speak to any of us (my siblings that is).

Am not justifying myself I just wonder if this changes anyone's advice? I still think I am going to send her a non-confrontational letter and see what happens.