Can I walk away from this without prompting him to kill himself?

[theabysswithin]

Need some help with this... my ex and I separated two years ago at my instigation for a variety of reasons (verbal and financial abuse/alcohol dependency/inability or unwillingness to participate in family life and refusal to contribute financially being the most significant).

My ex has always been prone to bouts of depression and over the past month or so has been seriously depressed and has been threatening suicide over a variety of issues (financial problems and loneliness being the main ones.

We didn't exactly separate amicably but we've maintained a reasonably cordial relationship in front of our daughter almost too cordial in that I feel he is over-dependent on me emotionally and still asks me to do quite a lot of life admin for him and we spend a reasonable amount of time together. I've tried to draw back from this as I have totally moved on, but as his depression has deepened I've become worried about him and I am basically the only person he can talk to about it.

The flip side of this is he is quite controlling and makes it really hard for me to have any kind of social life by withholding childcare, things like going off the radar when we have arranged for him to be looking after my daughter, not returning phone calls to confirm appointments and being so late he renders it impossible for me to go out. He has refused any formal contact agreements at all and every time I try discuss these he shuts me down and says he is going to run away etc. No financial support from him at all aside from him buying the odd item of clothing for our daughter.

Last week he said he wanted to kill himself, I came with him to an appointment with a therapist and generally supported him around interactions with doctors and helped him get his act together around work. All seemed to be going well and then tonight following an extremely petty disagreement he has just rung me to tell me he will kill himself tonight. I promptly called an ambulance and the police (who I presume are with him now).

I know these are bullying tactics and that he is probably bluffing. I am absolutely sick of being the backstop for everything in his life and being abused into the bargain when I try to regain some degree of control by going out occasionally, having my work disrupted by having to look after him etc. But the bottom line is that for my daughter's sake, I can't just stand by and watch him die.

How do I get out of this loop? We are going through mediation at the moment and even though I'm probably going to have to shell out to get him out of my life I'm happy to do this. But for her sake, I can't let him destroy himself and I couldn't live with the guilt if he did.

Am I basically stuck with this for the rest of my life?

This point will be the hardest so far (I'm guessing as I have no experience personally of this) for both of you

He's escalated his behaviour to actual harm to regain control - he needs to know it won't so a clean break would be best all round

Good advice from the poster who said be clear to the hospital you are not part of his care plan. Ensure you see it recorded if you can.

It will also help the hospital further assess his mental health if he is saying you are still a couple/support and they know it not to be true

They need to see the reality of his situation in order to help him

Hope you are ok - be kind on yourself. Do you have anyone you can lean on in real life?

theabyss it's clear to me that you're not weak and self-centred; if you were you'd never have been able to keep this together at all

Can I just gently ask how you the situation arose where you were speaking to him, though? Surely the staff on the ward could have told you whether he made it there or not - which might also have been a good opportunity to tell them not to include you in any plans for him?

Well done on calling the police and getting an ambulance to him. You did very well to do that, rather than rushing to his side.

Now you need to let him know what's going to happen from here on in. I definitely would NOT go to hospital to see him, and I would not call him again either. He will contact you sooner or later and when he does, tell him that he needs professional help, and you can't look after him anymore, and you don't want him to contact you again unless it's to do with your daughter. I know you can't block him because of your daughter but I would definitely ignore all texts and messages unless they were to do with your daughter. If you respond, even with a "please leave me alone", he will consider this encouragement so best to ignore it, no matter how hard it feels.

I would prevent him seeing your daughter until he's well enough to do so and then ensure she's not on her own with him. A suicide threat is bad enough but she mustn't be put at risk too. Do not accompany her to his visits. Do you have friends who could host his time with her for a while?

I don't think you're weak-willed or self-centred at all, by the way. I think you're kind and compassionate and caring. But this situation isn't working well for you or your daughter or your ex, and it looks to me as though you're the only person both able and willing to change it.

Good luck, OP.

rabbit you clearly mean well but I don't think your tactics are helping abyss right now.

One question for you abyss. You seem to have accepted that you need to detach. What is preventing you from making that phone call to him on the ward your last direct contact with him?
Is it that you need to say goodbye? Then do that. Is it that you feel you need to hand over the responsibility you think you hold?
Talk to his family or care team and pass it over. One step at a time. You can do this.

Belleende I went to hospital briefly this afternoon. Told him I could no longer cope with his behaviour and he was on his own. I said that if he wanted regular contact with his daughter on an unsupervised basis in the future he would have to demonstrate to my satisfaction and that of his mental health workers that he will never pull a stunt like this again.

I also said that if he couldn't cope with life here his best option was probably to return to his home country as I could no longer help him and I wasn't prepared to be his backstop.

As to whether that counts as saying goodbye I couldn't say. I will keep in touch with the hospital on next steps in order to make sure that when he is discharged I know where he's discharged to. I need to work out whether to allow supervised visits with my daughter. She will be extremely upset if she never sees him again. I am satisfied that she can see him as long as someone else is there.

That's where I am right now.

That must have been incredibly tough. Well done. So, what will you do if he rings/texts/emails you in the next few days? Be prepared that he will use negotiations over access to your daughter as an opportunity to influence and control you? Have you thought how you might set your boundaries? What help and support do you have in real life? You will need as much as you can get to stay strong on this. This will get easier.

That was incredibly brave. Well done.

Take it one day at a time now and stand firm.

Even if his family aren't in the country, you should still let them know what's going on.

Stop answering his phone calls unless your DD is with him and it might be an emergency.

If he threatens suicide when he's with her, then he is a risk and shouldn't be left unsupervised with her.
By not answering the phone, he'll have to
actually text and you'll have it in writing that he's suicidal and you'll have have the written evidence to forward to his family and to social services.

I posted before reading your update. Spot on. Well done.

I moved across the country to get away from my ex. After a period of time I allowed contact with my girls, but he eventually fucked it up by driving with them whilst off his head (I have never forgiven myself for allowing them to go that day, I feel I should have realised he wasn't in his right mind, though he was acting OK) Anyway he drove down the wrong side of the road( all 3 in the front of a van) and my dd1 managed to reach across and steer him into the side to avoid a head on crash- he braked automatically and slumped over the wheel. My quick witted girls scrambled out and began to run crying and screaming back the way they came( about 2 miles from home). He came to and turned around and caught up with them shouting at them to get back in, but they wouldn't. And no one stopped to help. He followed them, but was unable to work out how to get through the one way system, so they reached home.
They refused to have anything to do with him after that, not that I'd let him take them obviously! I called the police, but no one ever came to ask them about it, or to even look for him.
He died as a result of alcohol/ drugs about 3 months later. I didn't care, apart from the fact that they were devastated by his death of course.
It has impacted horribly on them in many ways( they're adults now)
These sorts of men are utter selfish cowards completely wrapped up in their fucking selfish worlds. It makes me so angry when I read about this sort of story.

Are you sure that keeping in touch with the hospital is wise? That negates the "not my responsibility; nothing to do with me" message that you wish them to take on board.

That must have been a tough conversation but it was the right time to do it whilst he is in a safe and observed environment

I hope you get some rest and some peace from being badgered in the next few days at least

It might be worth looking in to more formal contact arrangements in the near future.
If he has no one close enough to support him, who would supervise contact - would you have a friend/family willing to do it so you have some distance

I don't get why you need to keep in touch with the hospital?

SweetLuck for the following reasons a) because I want to know where he's going to go if/when he is discharged for mine and my daughter's protection b) because I need to let his family know his whereabouts (none of them are in this country and he hasn't got any contact with the outside world at the moment c) because despite everything I do want to know, once he is discharged, that he is at least safe and d) because I need to have some idea where he is in order to plan contact.

Maybe that makes me weak. So be it. I know I need to cut ties with him but I don't want to leave him to die with no oversight whatsoever.

Sorry for blurting earlier! It just gave me a flashback to those horrible days and feeling - while not exactly responsible - but just angry about someone who messed my kids up and left me to cope with the fallout of his selfish behaviour. And wondering if they secretly thought I was responsible.
Its an awful situation to be in for you, I wish you all the strength in the world to deal with it.

The dynamic between you and him is part of the problem and as one half of the dynamic it means that your actions (however noble or altruistic) is a contributing factor to the dysfunctional dynamic.

The language you are still using "I can't leave him to die" and "I need to know where he is to formalise contact'suggests that you're still not ready to stop investing in the dynamic.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions and just because you mean well, doesn't mean that you're doing good. The great worry that many posters have is that your sense of responsibility for his choices, is a lesson that your DD will learn from you and that's in addition, to the pull that most kids have to take responsibility for the actions of adults they are close to.

OP you're just too close to this and if you don't disengage fully, the cycle and his need to keep the cycle going, will never be broken.

Better to pass the baton onto his family and or the authorised, than your DD.

You're not 'leaving him to die'. He's not your responsibility, he's a grown man, and an emotionally manipulative one at that. I understand that you don't want your child to lose contact with him but that doesn't make you his keeper. If his family are interested they will find him.

Tell dd he us ill in hospital and stop thinking g about contact for a few weeks.
Take a break
Go take a summer holiday
Dd will.be fine
Then speak to the professionals aboit arranging safe contact e.g. contact centre

(b) is not true, he is not your responsibility.
(c) is you not disengaging from him. You really need to disengage.

(a) and (d) clash with each other - if you need protection from him you need a restraining order to keep him away and no plan for contact. However either way it's not for the hospital to inform you of his discharge. He needs to get well completely isolated from this unhealthy dynamic. When he is capable of functioning as a rational adult (may be years) he can get in touch with you then.

It is true that this is a complicated situation. Imho, the thing is that your daughter does not have enough thinking ability at her age to make an informed decision about contact with her dad.

She will be upset, she might be. But being upset is nothing to being in potentially very serious danger.

As her mum, it is your duty to make the difficult executive decision to protect her; and yes, that includes protecting her from family, her father included, if need be. This is a need be situation.

He is a danger to himself and it must be presumed to others also. To be dismissive of this because a little girl might cry some tears is a very perilous choice.

You stepped away from the relationship because of his manipulations (among other things). Why are you so easily manipulated by a child's tears? You have backbone; your dd needs it used for her benefit too.

You couldn't deal with him anymore, so why on earth would you have your dd step up to deal with/be exposed to him? Just no.

I think the reality of your DD having contact with the man/dad you want him to be/he needs to be for her and the one he really is is a long way off.

He needs time and space to get there and you need the reassurance he's been able to maintain a consistent level of sustained mental health

Our male role models in childhood often shape our futures with men so it needs to be as right as it can be

You say that you would not be able to live with the guilt if he killed himself but the probability is that you would find a way to live with yourself and that the guilt would fade. Whether or not he kills himself in the future is not directly connected to the choices that you are making in this moment. Your role in all of this is to protect first your DD and second yourself, or the other way around, depending on quite how precarious a situation you are in.

You and your DD would both go on living whether or not he did or did not. This is as true of suicide as it is true of cause of death, although perhaps bereavement by suicide is harder than other sorts of grief. Through your DD you will carry the relationship you had with this person but for the sake of your DD you need to ask yourself what is in it for me in keeping contact with him going.

This is controlling behaviour.

Is a talk with the police in order?

Sorry, now they are aware of his behaviour, is it worth having a talk with them to give them sone idea that this is an escalation of behaviour and not a one off?