Money - help me find the words to explain to my husband what is fair

[Caravan21]

We both used to earn £45k. After two kids I took a lower paid job and earn £27k.
Every time I try to formulate an argument as to why I should pay less into the joint account it ends up in a huge row. I think we should both have the same amount of 'pocket money' (for want of a better word) and so he should pay the higher proportion.
Each time we argue he says 'well we've never done that before, it was your choice to go into a lower paid role'. I can't get him to see that money is family money. We are going around in circles.
Please give me the words. We don't have a good marriage, but that's another story. I just don't seem to be able to reason with him.

Did you both know how much your salary would decrease in your new role? And did you both agree how that would affect your joint finances and the shared bills that need to be covered? Or did you both make different assumptions?

He may feel that you've done well out of the new arrangement in that your job is much less stressful, less travel away, and you have more time to be with the kids. He may feel that he still has a very stressful job, but has less disposable income.

What would have happened if the decision had been the other way round and he had an easier life and you were stressed?

I'm not suggesting that it's right that he keeps 'his' money, but what were his expectations and yours when you decided to change job?

I hear that you love him, but how can you respect a man like this? How?
He has been fine for you to take a hit financially for the kids, but he doesn't even have the integrity to financially support his family properly.
Why is he squirrelling money away elsewhere? Its disgraceful. Sorry to sound harsh, but I don't know how you cope with it at all.

Abuse as well is not about communication of a lack of it, its about power and control. He now has the majority of the financial power in this relationship (my guess is that it was not ever truly equal either) and is using that against you and in turn your children.

You may well love him but he really does not know the meaning of the word.

Do you think he is a good father to his children?. He is not if he treats you and in turn them like this.

caravan,

Do you:-

feel afraid of your partner much of the time?
avoid certain topics out of fear of angering your partner?
feel that you can’t do anything right for your partner?
believe that you deserve to be hurt or mistreated?
wonder if you’re the one who is crazy?
feel emotionally numb or helpless?

He has his own savings account.

You say you love him like that solves and excuses everything, it doesn't; what's important is that you feel valued and respected, he's not doing this so you either suck it up OP or actually decide you are worth more than being treated like a second class citizen.

He knows you won't go either so nothing will change.

I see this issue popping up again and again on MN.
We have one account that both our money goes into and that all our spending money comes out of that. We also have a joint savings account. It's not for everyone but it works for us

DH and I are members of the same profession. Before we had children, we both worked all the hours the job took....

One of the DC has SEN, and and there were just too many appointments, meetings, etc, plus there was no childcare suitable for her in the school holidays. I respect other mothers' right to work if they want; but imo, it would have been a choice between career and getting DD what she needed - and we chose her, even though it meant we were worse off!

Since having DC, DH has always been self employed. I reason that I have always been there for the children 24/7 - if any of them were teething or ill all night, I got up to them! I dealt with all the paperwork, appointments, studied the law, dealt with the benefits system, etc for DD. If his suits need picking up from the cleaners in the week, I do it for him. Personally, I think looking after children is more stressful than work in our profession! If we had both worked and he had had to do half the nights, days off for sickness, appointments, etc; he would not have done as well as he has!

We both work the same hours; its just he gets paid for it and I don't, but he could concentrate on his career; and earned far more as a result! We have one joint account and everything comes out of that. There is no his and mine!

Ask your DH if he thinks, he could concentrate as well on his work, if he was up all night to a child with DV; especially if they all got it one after another? Likewise, taking days off looking after sick children, going to Sports Days, parents' evenings, appointments....Keep a record of how many hours you work in a week, including all childcare, housework, whatever and how many DH works - my guess is that you work more?

Why do you 'love' someone who thinks he is your owner? The most telling thing is him having said that, if you stop work, he will support you financially rather than paying what would be a lesser amount into the family accounts so you are all better off.
This man wants you in a position of dependency so he can withold or give money as he sees fit. FFS don't give up work. He will not become more generous with money. He will amuse himself finding ways to torment you with money - paying you less than he had agreed, paying it late, demanding you account for every penny spent and making sure that nothing is ever for your benefit or pleasure...

If I leave him I'll get hardly anything from him. He pays himself a low wage and then takes the rest in dividends. I'll get less than he puts into the joint account. Only wages are taken into account when working out child payments.

I don't know what I'm going to do, just stating facts. I can't hardly face up this myself.

Thanks for your comments. I'll leave this thread now. I didn't ask if I should leave him or not and said repeatedly I can't and don't want to. It's not always that simple. Not everyone as as strong as person typing 'leave the bastard'.

I'm on a low wage, emotionally in a bad place, will have to fight for every penny in the divorce, have to sell this house, look after two kids alone. May not be able to do the job I do as I can't travel. I have no one to turn to.

THanks to everyone who responded to my original question.

So if you leave, this prince among men will see his children go without, and you love him? Why, just why?

Fuck that shit, hes a nasty twat.

I'm a single working parent, life is great, I do what I want when I want, and I've posted before that I will never again share my bed or bank account with another man.

You make your situation seem really hopeless but it is not actually as hopeless nor as unique unfortunately as you think it is. There is always a way out; at the very least seek legal advice re the finances rather than mere supposition in your head re such things. A forensic accountant could get to the bottom of his business dealings very quickly as well.

You love a man that you are trapped with because if you did decide to leave he'd leave his kids without, on a salary of 45K.

Whether you wanted it or not OP, nobody is going to encourage you to stay with him.

Look after two kids alone, so he'd also absolve himself of any parenting responsibilities.

Jeezo, you do have choices OP.

Calculate your 'nannying hours' and how much this would cost. Tell him you're applying for a bettervpaid job and give him a list of the costs he will be paying for childcare and a list of things he will have to find solutions to eg flexible childcare when you are both away, picking up I'll children from school etc etc. Any household chores you currently pick up?
... Or he can can grasp the concept of family money and act on it.
The problem here does sound like your marriage and that you're worried about your financial situation if you leave him. This sounds an awful way to live though....

Take it from someone who ended a 10+ yrs marriage because stbxh refused to pool income, it will only get worse. Things got so bad that "what was his was his, and what was mine was family's", he couldn't be bothered with holidays (or said he couldn't afford it, even though he was earning 1000s in rental income every month) so could only go when I was willing to pay for all of us. Now with divorce, it's clear that he was using his earnings to pay off mortgage on HIS properties, whilst every penny I earned went into our family.

You have much bigger issues in your relationship than money. If you still want to give it a shot, insist on couples counselling...and for you, I'd recommend individual counselling. You really should not be saying you can't leave a relationship! Better still, throw in some individual coaching and work out how to become self sufficient.

Good luck x

You say you love him but does he love you? Doesn't sound like it.

Just in case you do come back op

They are his children too, the cost of their upbringing is a family expense.

If you were to leave him and not take the children how much would he have to pay in childcare and other expenses?

That is the amount your flexible working is saving your family.

Do you think he'd be willing to take a greater share in the childcare and housework if you were to return to your old job OP? I suspect not, because this one seems to want it both ways.

If he feels entitled to more money because he works harder, he needs to be paying you half of the additional childcare you provide. Bear in mind, as a pp said, you have a 2:1 ratio which is much lower than a CM would, so the price needs to reflect that.

He DOES See. He just doesn't want to, and the clue is in 'our marriage is not good' ...

It's decision time. Write down what you want / need to be FAIR. give him a week to agree, or you leave, this is fundamental,and says everything about how he sees you

You are worth much more x

If you do decide that leaving is the way to go you can ask the CMS to take dividends into account when calculating maintenance payments so that you are not left short.

As others have said, if he really believes that the money he earns is his he is very unlikely to change. I lived for 20 years with someone who thought it was fine for him to go out drinking every night, spend fortunes on his hobbies yet leave me scrabbling around trying to find money to pay for school shoes. I worked most of our married life, had a few years off when children were very small and because I became too ill to work. For years I earned more than him and never objected to everything being shared equally and he was quite happy with this situation but once the shoe was on the other foot it was a different matter altogether. I was expected to ask for money only to be always told he didn't have it. It was soul destroying.

Read through Attila's list of questions, if you can answer yes to any of them then I would seriously consider doing some reading around the subject of abuse, The Emotionally Abusive Relationship by Patricia Evans is a good one to start with, and think about having some counselling to get yourself in a better place.

A pro rata percentage is the only way forward. A calculated monthly total for what the family needs including rainy day amount, agreed savings and future capital spends like a cars as well as child care and clothing and food etc. And then you both put in a pro-rata amount of that total from your earnings.

The rest you can both keep. That is fair when its a family. To decide otherwise is to say my income is more important than my family.

I am not a fan of the idea of everything into a joint pot and pocket money coming out only. Each earner needs to be free to decide what they do with their own money. But the family bills have to come first.

Rather than spend the money on holidays, would it not be better to get the house jobs done?

I don't see not handing over more so you can have more "pocket money" as you put it as financial abuse. He's paying his share plus putting into the joint savings.

You could use childcare but you don't want to, would he be happy to use it?

When DH and I first moved in together we had similar incomes so we split everything 50 / 50. He now 3 times as much as I do so pays 3 times as much towards our mortgage, bills and food. I'm pregnant and when I on maternity leave I'll be getting a pittance, so he will contribute more again. I work just as hard as he does and just because I don't get financially rewarded as well he wouldn't keep it to himself - we're a team.

If you are married aren't you entitled to half the business! Thus half the dividends?