DC going overnight... cannot get my head around it plus they don't want to

[OhMy2017]

So DC under 5 are going to stay overnight with narc ex for first time. They don't want to. I promise that there is no influence from me. What do I do?

Plus, I cannot get my head around why children so young must. How do I manage all of this?

I would value advice/opinions please. Thank you for your time.

Be cheerful, dress it up as an adventure. I never tell mine I'll miss them as they may feel torn I just say right off to dad's mums got jobs to do now.

I'm nine years down the line, they still go, they don't jump with joy but they go and they have a reasonable relationship with him.

Get the wine in and enjoy the quiet x

Are you worried about them staying with him? Or do you just feel uncomfortable because they don't want to? It's their first night staying with him so obviously it's going to feel a bit strange the first night for you and the children especially with them both being under 5 it's not like one is older to comfort the younger one but could you just ring and check later that they are ok and speak to them over the phone if it's not going to upset them? X

They won't want to the first time! Of course, they're leaving their mum.
Lots of kids get used to it though and come to enjoy time with both parents.

Thank you.
I am worried about DC staying.... not sure that they'll get same care/attention.
It is hard that they don't want to so I ask myself what this is all for and why children this young must do this. Why do they have to be taken away from their comfort/safety?
I'm worried that they'll get left in someone else's care.
Ex is narcissistic and manipulative

@OhMy2017 is it an arrangement you have both come to? Are they going to be staying once a week or is it just a one off? X

Why on earth wouldn't a child of any age stay over night with their own father?

Children - even babies - don't need to be with their mothers all the time.

I don't like not having my child every night, I do feel for you. But you need to give up this idea that under 5 is too young - there's no such thing as too young - and concentrate on the actual issues.

Is it actually unsafe?
If he leaves them with someone else, is that unsafe?
If so - see a solicitor.
If not... then you need to find a way through it and make it work for you all - and that includes sending the kids off with a positive vibe, they will pick up on your feelings.

How do you make it work?

Well, part of making it work is letting go of the idea that they are too young. They're really not.

Millions of fathers have their children alone at any age - not just separation, but mothers who are working, mothers who are out socially, mothers who are away temporarily caring for others.

There is no reason in principle that a baby, toddler, child cannot be away from their mother.

Some men who were absofuckinglazyuselessuninvolveddicks actually have better relationships when forced into the odd bit of short term parenting.

What are your concerns?

Thank you.

That he won't be so attentive
Leave DC in a corner to their own devices
May leave them
Not have respect for routine
Try to manipulate them

Is this part of a formal arrangement via the courts or have you been browbeaten into this by him?.

Your concerns are well justified given what you have written about him.

I feel your pain. I have a son when I was young (he is 17 now) and he went to stay with his dad from age 4. I used to cry and worry alot but I did get used to it. Also, he used to have so much "fun" with his dad where as I did all the boring stuff.
You do get used to it, honestly. When OW came on the scene (son now aged 7) he didn't enjoy it as much because he didnth get all of his dad's attention but he still went every other weekend.
To be fair, the OW (now his wife) is an extremely organised person (which I like in a person). Don't get me wrong, there have been massive disagreements over the years!
Fast forward to age 17 and I now have 2 young DC with my DH. My oldest son is going to America with his dad for 3 weeks (something which I could never afford) and I am happy for him.
I think I am trying to say that whatever situation you are in now, it always changes and it will get easier I promise. My son arranges all of his own contact. TBH, I am quite pleased when he goes away because his room stinks and I can air it!
Organise something nice like a friend coming round and watch a girly film. Teat yourself.
You can get used to anything and so can the kids.
Good luck x

Mine were 4 and 6 when exH left and them going to his was very hard for me. We hadn't spent a night apart previously. But, we made it into a big adventure - how exciting to be staying in daddy's new house etc (I persuaded him to buy the bunk beds they'd always wanted as a "draw") so they were looking forward to it by the time they went. I was devastated that I was 'losing' them of course but they didn't know that and still don't. I think it's so important to be on board with it For the children's sake and for them not to pick up anything negative from us whatever our true feelings. That said, I didn't have any concerns about the quality of his parenting. I knew they'd be safe and warm and fed. If there was evidence they might not be i might have felt differently. Is there a genuine concern that yours are not going to be looked after or are you worried his care is just not up to your own standards?

YABU, though I understand the difficulty of "letting go".

Just to take your points one by one. "That he won't be so attentive". So what? Maybe he won't be as attentive as you. Maybe he'll be attentive in a different way. Whatever - you can't control this.

"leave DC in a corner to their own devices". How old are your DC? Unless really tiny, there's nothing wrong with being left to their own devices. Kids don't need constant interaction.

"may leave them". Of course, this would concern me, but why would you think he'd do that?

"not have respect for routine". Again, you can't control this - he may want to start his own routine. You can tell him what your routine is, but whether or not he follows your routine is frankly, up to him.

"try to manipulate them". This seems a bit of a projection, tbh.

I know it's hard, OP, but try to take a more positive approach to this.

How did it go?

On some of your points you just have to let go, It's the easiest way on yourself. He will do things differently and you can't worry about rusty.

I hope it went well for all of you x

Thank you so much.....

Yes, it's that 'I'm losing them' feeling. Not easy.

So not great... DC said that they didn't want to go but then them and I put on a brace face. It felt awful. Inside, it did not feel right.

Is it a court order?

No
Browbeaten

Firstly

It's good that it's not been a court case - that is a real positive. It's good that he wants to be involved in their lives. As shit a he was as a husband, some single dads actually do a really good job when they have to.

I cannot imagine how hard this must be, except you must feel like a part of you is missing, but you are doing brilliantly to put on a brave face and not let it show x

I understand OP. The thing is if you have been in a relationship with a very difficult OH, who is manipulative etc., especially if he's always left you to do most of the childcare, then your DC will gravitate towards you and see you as safety and comfort. Far more so than where the parents are doing equal amounts of childcare and are both loving and responsible.

Threads like this always say "he's their dad, why shouldn't they be fine with him?" but I know how it feels to worry they won't be. It's one reason I didn't leave ex sooner - I was waiting for the DC to be older and have more coping skills.

All I can suggest is focus on having a good relationship with your ex as far as possible, even if that means biting your tongue, and on giving your DC all the love and support you can at home (I'm sure you do). They will get older, it will get easier. Distract yourself and do kind things for yourself when they are there.

Also keep a diary of contact days and how it went, noting down anything your DC say, any messing you around or manipulating you that he tries, etc. If you think anything worrying is happening, such as them being neglected or harmed, you'll have a record of it and can discuss with a lawyer / SS and get advice.

(The diary thing was what my lawyer advised me to do btw. Keep it hidden obviously.)

I'd ask why you don't think he was feeling the same way at not seeing his kids as much as he presumably used to? If you feel torn and emotional without them, think about how much more frequently he's left thinking the same way. I felt like someone had ripped my guts out when I could only see my two for half the week (and now even less than that, thanks to my exW deciding she'd move to the other side of the country).

I'm probably projecting, and therefore being unfair to you (sorry), but I HATE this attitude a lot of women have that Dads are barely competent to tie their own shoelaces, and that the only emotions they feel are when their football team are playing!

He might have been an arse to you, and I'm sorry that was the case, but that doesn't mean he'll treat his children badly. And he may have different ideas of how to raise (both of) your children, but that doesn't make them "bad" or wrong.

I don't think this thread is really about a lot of women thinking men in general aren't competent, Changedname. It's specifically about a narcissistic and manipulative man who his own children are themselves reluctant to see, and that's why OP is upset at having to send them.

I'm with MsMoobly. I understand your concerns perfectly OP. Keep that diary and document everything your DC happen to tell you about when they are at daddy's.
With respect to everyone else, unless you have dealt with a narc ex you have no idea about the well-founded concerns and difficulties involved in trying to protect DC's emotional and psychological welfare from these toxic personalities.
Narcissistic personality disordered people make terrible, abusive partners and always terrible selfish, bullying parents too. It is not a normal breakup situation in which waving DC off to ex partner with a cheery smile will teach them to relax and enjoy themselves away from their healthy parent who is worrying for no reason.
The DC pick up on the negative vibes. They WILL be ignored, they WILL feel controlled, their needs WON'T be met since narcs are cold and distant not warm and empathetic and they ARE at risk of accidents from neglect.
OP YANBU at all.

MsMoobly and keepingonrunning... you put the situation into context. Narcs are awful but are not recognised by anyone- no judge, mediator or counsellor as they are so charismatic.

Everything in relation to DC has been about him - his time/rights etc etc. He does not fulfill all responsibilities and does not put DC first.

Hence my worry

XH doesn't really want the bother of looking after your DC. He wants control over them and to deprive you of time with them.
One approach is to pretend you are happy for him to have them because you have some exciting venture planned for when they are away, and/or a new red hot lover. If XH thinks you have spent a lot of money on tickets he may be even more inclined to cancel having the DC just to piss you off.
Agree an arrangement - every other weekend is common. If he pushes for more contact stretch to one overnight stay per fortnight aswell, as a last resort one overnight stay per week - that is the level a court might order. Then do not waver from it - at all. He will try to push those boundaries but keep the dates and times set in stone. Rebuff any demand for variations.
Use the grey rock method. Stay resolute. As far as possible ignore him, only respond to practicalities about the children.
There is every possibility that as they enter their teenage years they will choose not to stay with him much anyway. They are likely to sense he doesn't really care about them.