DC going overnight... cannot get my head around it plus they don't want to

[OhMy2017]

So DC under 5 are going to stay overnight with narc ex for first time. They don't want to. I promise that there is no influence from me. What do I do?

Plus, I cannot get my head around why children so young must. How do I manage all of this?

I would value advice/opinions please. Thank you for your time.

I think the problem is that 'narc' has replaced 'toxic' as the mot du jour on the internet - with the result that when you read the phrase 'narc ex' it simply doesn't have the same impact as, say 'alcoholic ex'.

The OP started with a focus on the children being too young - they are not.

OP needs to work out which battles to fight. Their father leaving them with someone else during contact time is potentially not one to fight - if the person they are left with is responsible. Also no point in fighting a different routine, if it's not seiously upsetting the children - we all parent differently. Leaving them to their own devices? If it's not safe, speak to a solicitor about the potential outcome of withdrawing contact. If it means not hands on parenting: welcome to the 70s!

OP needs to work out where she can let go - because denying contact is unlikely to be a possibility.

OP, you know how he operates, you're the one that knows what you mean by narc. I would spend your time and energy devising strategies to counter whatever his brand of manipulation is - not on fighting a different routine.

Ellisandra I think the problem is when someone refers to a narc ex but is dismissed as using a mot du jour.
Some of us do have narc ex's. It happens, believe it.
Even when a parent has beaten their child black and blue, most judges insist on contact time with that parent and not always supervised. Emotional and psychological abuse is not regarded as very damaging while some argue it is the most damaging type of abuse of all.

I think you have to accept that they are going to their father. Presumably he loves them too.

This is just the start of contact weekends and it will be going on for a good 15 years or so. He will establish his own way of doing things and own routines when they are with him. this is just the same as if they were to stay eg. with your mum she would do things a bit differently.

I think it is your own worries that you are projecting.

Use the time apart to treat yourself to a bubble bath, an exercise class, a mooch round the shops, a night out or in with a friend and a bottle of prosecco so you keep yourself busy.

They may come back having had a nice time because he plays at being Disney dad with them. You must accept that this is going to happen and do what you can to love them, get them back on track after their weekends with him and assume that he does love his own children so will care for them in an appropriate manner.

keeping I don't need to be told it happens and to believe it.
Of course it happens.

The problem is that so many people bandy about the term narc for common or garden arsehole. As I say, it's the mot du jour. Which means the OP doesn't get the specific advice she needs. Drop the nebulous term narc and explain what she's worried about - and people can focus on advising with that. Whether that be what she has a chance against legally, or tips like grey rock strategies. Just saying narc doesn't help.

My BFF had similar. Her son's visits were court ordered so she had no choice. Her son was two years old. She had to content herself with the fact that she could say he was 'safe'. He may have eaten sugar cereal for breakfast and hot dogs for lunch and dinner, but he didn't go hungry. He may have not had his 'routine' but he would not be allowed to stick fingers in light sockets or play in traffic. He may have come home filthy, but he did come home.

The good part was that her ex got tired of 'daddy duty' even at these minimal standards and the overnights fizzled out after about 6 months. She knew that if she obstructed or complained about his 'standards' he'd stick with the visits just out of spite. Instead she gritted her teeth and bore it and when he started calling to 'change' cancel dates she just agreed with no comment or complaint.

Presumably he loves them too.
No he doesn't. He only loves himself. That's the problem. He can't be trusted to take care of their needs.

What contact has he had to date? Could that be worked on/ increased so that they might feel happier at the prospect of staying overnight? That's what I would aim for.

Can you encourage him to do things that make it appealing? (Or can you?) Like the bunk beds idea, not necessarily so expensive. My ex bought new "character" pyjamas.

Do they feel at home in his house? Are they familiar with the bedrooms?

I think age is a valid concern. An older child can better articulate how they feel.

Some things really don't matter so much, eating crap food, etc. But don't ignore your instincts.
If it's not court ordered, I think I would take control and think of what you can do to make it easier for them children to adjust to staying away.

If he is capable of putting them first then he'd work with you on this, despite that he might feel sad about it. If he isn't then do you think you could come up with a plan and put it to him?

I know that's not easy.

Narc husbands do not good fathers make.

I speak as the daughter of one.

Shit husbands don't make wonderful dad's.

They do not go hand in hand.

I love my DH to bits. So obviously hoping we never split! Hypothetically, I wouldn't have any issues handing over kids, even baby...because he's a superb husband AND father. I would miss them. But that would be it.

My narcissistic abusive ex was a cunt of a partner, and a shockingly shit father. I was petrified of him taking my DS.

I am tired of the 'get over it OP, his kids, his rules, his watch, he decides'. I made damn sure he saw DS on my watch. No to overnights. No to any contact without me.

Friend of mine had to hand over her daughter to a man that beat her black and blue, and there was nothing she could do, as he didn't show violence to the DD!

You wouldn't hand over your child to a nursery that fails children, or a childminder that is nasty, or family members that are toxic.

But the father? He's the parent too y'know...

OP. I get it. If the kids don't want to go, tell him that. Don't feel pressured. 5 is young with the wrong person. If my DH thought his children would be sad or worried with an overnight, he'd suggest a day meet up. But it wouldn't happen as my kids love him to bits.

I arranged all contact in public and with me. After 2 years of shit from him, manipulation and more, cancelling contact all the time, not paying, contact finally stopped. Bliss.

Good luck. It's hard x

gluteustothemaximus

If the kids don't want to go she needs to reasssure them not tell him they don't want to go. She should be encouraging them and the courts will not look kindly if she is doing the opposite...

Op it's very difficult. Dd now almost 13 has had contact eow with my vile abusive ex since she was about 18 months old. It's incredibly difficult to hand them over especially when you know they won't show the same level of care.

However a bit carelessness and lack of attention to detail won't actually harm ypur child. They may come back grubby, having eaten their own body weight in haribos and quavers washed down by fruit shoots. They may be.overtired and over stimulated and have missed you an awful lot. But for the sake of your sanity and to make it easier in your dcs you need to accept it. Unless obviously you have concerns they are coming to real harm.

I am at end of this almost. Dd is almost 13 and had an arguement with her dad back in march. He was in the wrong as he usually is as he is a cunt. But he is apparently waiting for dd to phone and apologise. She won't as she has done nothing wrong. I am pretty sure he won't call her as he has form for holding a grudge.

So eventually it does end. Until then just be as calm as you can and accept he won't do it how you would. Otherwise you go everso slightly insane.

What if the kids didn't want to go for very valid reasons? Like I did.

But SteppingOnToes surely if the children don't want to go he should be building up their confidence, helping them feel secure, reassuring their mother. Working with her to make it best for the children. Isn't that what a decent parent would do?

Its difficult to have the fear of what a court would order hanging over everything. But the court isn't involved right now so I'd try to approach it in terms of taking a little time to figure what you think you could make work for the DC.

Frouby how awful to hold a grudge like that with a 13 year old.

Has he actually been diagnosed with narcissistic personality disorder?

Does anyone have that diagnosis if it hasn't happened as part of pre-sentencing?!

What person is going to go to their GP and ask is there's a medical diagnosis for their brand of arsehole?

I disagree to encouraging. Then the child, as my DS would have done, would do it for me. But still be sad.

I also disagree to just sucking it up and accepting it.

I speak from experience of having friends who hated going to their dad's and couldn't wait until they were old enough to say they didn't want to go anymore.

My job is to protect my kids, and I did that.

Saw first hand how my ex didn't look after his other son. No way was that happening.

It's all very well saying "no way was that happening". You said yourself a friend had no choice about handing over he child to a man who had assaulted your friend.

How did you stop it from happening, that's what the OP needs to know. Practical advice to stop it. Did you go to court?

It's really difficult. My younger DC isn't very happy about going to her dad's (my older one is almost a teen and more philosophical).

I see her face fall when I remind her she's going overnight and then I see her recover herself and put on a brave face. She'll say she wants to stay with me but she will go because she "should". I hug her and gently ask her why she doesn't want to.

She says she wants to be with me as she feels closer to me because she was born from my tummy. She doesn't have the sophistication to understand that he's emotionally unavailable, subtly belittles her feelings and needs and ignores her/doesn't listen. I've seen him do it, and he did it to me, but it's not overt nasty abuse and no court would deny him overnights.

I can't slag her dad off and tell her he's not a nice person and it's him not her. But I'm not going to tell her not to be silly or that it's all fine, because she needs to know that I know where she's coming from and I'm on her side. It's a balancing act. I just say I understand, but it will be OK and she'll be back soon.

She will say things like she had a sore finger and I ask if she asked daddy for a plaster. She'll say she didn't because "he just wouldn't understand". In other words she knows he'll just forget as soon as she's asked, or belittle how painful it is, or just not have any plasters, or not listen.

She also knows (not from me) that she has to go to protect his feelings, because he'd be sad if she said she didn't want to. She's right, he wouldn't say "whatever DD needs to feel OK", he'd say "oh poor me, she rejected me." At 7 she's learned that it's all about him.

Now I know these things aren't dreadful (though he can be worse than this, it's usually more low-level stuff) but even so I can see the effects on her, and I hate making her go.

I don't mind if they have Macdonalds or play playstation all day. It's the emotional impact that's the hardest thing, even though it's subtle.

My friend 'felt' she had no choice. I would never have done what she did, but would never have said that to her. I was just pointing out that for some reason, no matter what father's do, even violence, they still have a right to see the children. I disagree.

Practically speaking, OP, I would dictate how things go. Set the boundaries on contact. If you don't feel happy with overnights, don't. Suggest a different way of contact, during the day, with you if you are very worried. If he challenges this, then you'll need to get a solicitor.

I had to get a solicitor involved, who was fantastic, and helped to get the contact as always supervised with me, and no overnights.

It's the emotional impact that's the hardest thing, even though it's subtle

Yes. This in spades.

Years and years of EA from NPD parents. So, no, in the same token my DS wouldn't go with his father, my kids will not be spending time with their grandparents. As GPs don't have rights, this is easy. It's not easy when it's the father though.

Thank you so much for sharing experiences.
Glute, how did you manage all of that.

I have been told repeatedly that I 'have to be seen to be reasonable'.

It's just not on thatvhe gets away with his behaviour and I am meant to just deal with it and find ways to cope when all I am doing is worrying, not just about the overnights (though they feel very wrong) but years of this and influence of him and his equally awful family.

It is true... he loves himself and just wants control. And you're right, if a child does not want to go, there should be some conversation had/some understanding, not 'we need to go'.

Moomin, are you able to provide further insights also as a daughter of one.

Frouby, how awful for your daughter.

I've tried to keep this out of court for fear of not being understood and me being made out to not being reasonable. The constant emotional abuse is just awful.

I had to get a solicitor involved, who was fantastic, and helped to get the contact as always supervised with me, and no overnights.

But if the worries are around the emotional impact dont you think that's an unusual outcome?

Firstly, you need to document everything. I had built up a very substantial list of problems from cancelling contact, to making DS upset, driving still under the influence as examples.

It's hard to prove emotional abuse.

We even had to go to the GP, as DS was being sick all the time, which ended up being psychosomatic.

You can still be reasonable without accepting overnight visits as part of contact. What about a phone call? This is still contact. We did this for a while, along with weekend visits, but then DS got very upset as the thought of phone calls. I was told to encourage them, but I was sick of them by that stage, and doing his bidding even though he was an absolute arsehole. And so were all his family.

He wanted to take me to court, and a solicitor got in touch with me. My solicitor wrote such a fantastic reply letter, bringing up all the reasons DS would not be safe with him as a responsible father, and he never took it further.

If it had gone to court, I don't know what I would have done.

But do fight, for what's right. This isn't about being spiteful to the other parent, or just having an issue about diet or parenting methods; it's about protecting your DD.

The trouble is what if you fight and lose. Then you have an even more unpleasant, embittered ex and you are made to look unhinged.

Thank you.

Yoshimi... how did you manage that?