living together while separated

[greenleaves2017]

I have name changed for this. I hope it is not too long.

My DH & I have been together more than 10 years, one DC aged around 9. We knew each other years before marrying and were close good friends.

Our problems have been long-standing and various. I feel that I have tolerated and been part of an unhealthy dynamic between us, that has gradually only got worse, gradually obscuring, sadly, more and more the good bits, reaching the point that last year and this year there are hardly any good bits at all, our sex life has dwindled to nothing, and we are from this week sleeping in separate bedrooms and I only talk to him in a polite manner for the basic routines of the day.

Main problem areas are:
--I think my DH has longstanding depression or may have mild autistic traits (never diagnosed) & certainly intense anxiety. He does not recognise any of this & usually explains his behaviour & restrictions as a reaction to various life stresses.
--As a consequence of the above, DH earns really little even though he's professionally trained, and that is a bit source of difficulty. I end up working much more than full time (full time employed work plus self employed) to over-compensate.
This has led, more and more, to me 'infantilising' him and him becoming more reliant on me, me in charge of all bills etc. Even though on average he does end up paying half of our basic bills plus a bit more, in reality, he just adds the money to our joint account WHEN he is paid, meaning that some months it's more, other months very little, and I don't know what to expect, and end up working very very hard to have extra money. He gets angry when I try to discuss this and I think he genuinely doesn't feel he could do anything further. He does contribute in other ways though, looking after our DC, doing drop offs, pick ups etc and being very close to DC. We generally work 'shifts'ie I work in mornings, get home 5.30, then he leaves for work & returns 9.30 pm, by which point I'm in bed.
--because of all the above, I think I end up being very irritated with him most of the time. That has got worse & worse over the years.
The worst bitwhich I feel the most ashamed of for tolerating--is that sometimes the arguments (particularly this year) lead to him totally losing it and becoming threatening, shouting, crying etc. The trigger is always the same: he freaks out with the idea of separating from me & DC. He has not ever hit me but this last week threatened me, shouted a lot so neighours could hear & scared DC in a way that he hasn't done before. So it's escalating.

I want to stress that I know I have been part of this very complex relationship which as I said has many parts to it. I have tolerated & indulged various bad behaviours (for a number of reasons). Not just bad behaviours on his part, but on mine too.

I also want to stress that I have tried talking & talking about these problems but that simply hasn't worked. The cycle of these outbursts just keeps happening, and actually the more trapped I feel, the worse they have been as I think he senses I am reaching my limits.

Since last sunday I have requested that we sleep in separate rooms & & have basically stopped talking to him. He has not really acknowledged what happened, I genuinely think (mad as it seems) that he has no idea how hurtful and scary his outbursts are. I don't think he gets it. Instead, he has sent me a couple of emotional short texts that serve to irritate me further. To them I've responded that I need time and space & can't really speak. He has respected this so far.

I feel distraught. I have never, over these years, left the family home despite my pain after each cycle of arguments. I have not even left our joint bedroom, so this is a huge step for me.

This man used to be my best friend and someone I have loved very much. I feel terribly guilty in entering into this awful 'mother-child' relationship with him, not setting clear boundaries over the years, and always just believing it will somehow just get better.

Where do I start in thinking about what to do? Ideally I would want him to move out for a couple of months so that I can clear my head as I feel traumatised. But I have not asked him and he won't do it unless he is dragged out (plus can't afford it). I have a small hope that with a proper period of separation (even if in the same home) he will finally grow up to a degree and start understanding certain things. He has a decent and thoughtful side to him, and many good aspects including in relationship with DC, but due to intense anxiety and other MN problems he ends up behaving in what, I am ashamed to say (and to have accepted) can only be called an abusive way. And I am not tolerating it anymore. But feel terribly sad & need support & thoughts please.

Could I ask, please don't go down the route (if you can) of 'divorce the bastard'. He is not a bastard, he has many genuintely good sides to him, he is however behaving in an abusive manner whenever separation is mentioned. And even if we do end up divorcingwhich I am finally seeing we may, if I want the outbursts / violence to endit will need time for me to accept it / work towards it. So be gentle!

I won't call him a bastard, but he sounds like a man with significant issues and you say yourself his reactions are escalating. It does not sound like a healthy, safe situation for you or your DC (let alone for him). Can you seek counselling, on your own perhaps, to help you work out next steps? Good luck.

Thank you 64PoolLane
I do have counselling actually for myself and it helps a lot. She has been insisting on telling me there is a way out, as I often feel desperate that there isn't.
I wonder from others' experiences where to start?
One of my main fears is his emotional threats / verbal abuse whenever separation is mentioned. He goes totally berserk (and will never leave the house I don't think willingly, unless I think very carefully & prepare regarding what to tell him and what the plan will be).
Another fear is losing my house which I adore. It has quite a lot of equity in it as we paid more than 60% of it. The house is owned by me & the mortgage is in my name only, but obviously DH is also paying bills and if he was to be able to afford anywhere to live (which he can't unless he works more and budgets better) I worry we will have to sell the house.

I can't really offer much advice, just solidarity - my DH sounds similar, the blow ups are horrendous, the language, and he doesn't care if it's infront of the kids, he doesn't seem to recognise it as a problem. Like you, I am his secure mother figure, his 'rock' which I can see now I totally enabled in the early years of the marriage, and in a different way more recently because since having kids he is often so childish, worse than the children! I've felt trapped since his behaviour escalated, broaching the subject little by little, but my situation differs now in that I recently discovered an affair, which he's admitted and taken responsibility for, and wants to fix, so he's out and we're separated and I have some respite. But not totally free as he has contact with the kids at home (not recommended by mumsnet I know but I'm worried for him to have the kids) and I thought I was safe from the abuse due to the separation and him being on best behaviour trying to 'win' me back post affair, but he's flipped out again in my home just yesterday (blaming the stress) and it's so hard to know how to handle mid flow. I always ask him to leave (he refuses or threatens he'll take the kids if he does). He never used to threaten violence but has done more recently. It sounds naive but I feel it's something he could fix if he tried, and actually be a positive force for the kids, whether we're together or not. He's just got huge issues, like yours, and stress/anxiety problems etc.
Do you keep a log of the blow ups? Language and threats etc? I've on occasion tried to record when a blow up is anticipated, but it's quite tricky. I'd wondered about sending him a recording, not sure if it's a good idea or not.
I really hope you find a way forward, a way to let him face up to himself, you are being so brave already in facing such an impossible situation, hopefully a door or window will open for you.

Hi OP: I left my ex like yours 4 months ago. I had it in my head to leave for atleast 18 months, and it had been really bad for the last 2 years (21 year relationship). He was very verbally aggressive and emotionally abusive. He also didn't work (his choice to be a SAHD) but he hated it and the dynamic change in our relationship seems to have been the catalyst among other things including alcohol.

I left because he would belittle me, rage, shout, be paranoid, insecurity etc and my kids were watching it all happen. he had no filter.

Anyway the main reason I stayed was out of a false sense of a family life for the kids but also how he would react. You see whenever I tired to talk about it or got annoyed with him or upset, he minimised my feelings and turn and shove it right back down my throat again. I told him and moved out within a week. One of things he told me was "I won't make this easy for you you know".

It was horrendous, I am not going to lie, but 4 months in I know I made the right decision. He continued the same pattern of self pitying behavior since I left, same pattern of abuse and has not really done anything to address his issues or any real fight to save our relationship despite telling me he is broken etc and I am the only woman for him blah blah blah.

A few weeks ago I confirmed I was not returning and within a few days had an ex lined up to come and visit for a week. He started to be nice and behave differently. My point is, these men, they can say they will change, you can fear their responses, but essentially the only one who can put an end to this is YOU by learning to know that you deserve more.

Good luck OP.

Indeed Pudding! No point wasting any more time with men like these because they don't change

Many similarities here too. My sTBXH I suspect is borderline. He has severe abandonment issues, what I realize now is anxiety and cannot handle stress. I should be all things to him but mainly his mother. Since I've tried to split with him a YEAR ago he has tried lots of things. Pleading, begging, raging, ranting. He scares me now. We're still in the same house separate rooms more fool me. He will not move out. But at least he has finally replied to the divorce petition

One word of warning. I made the mistake of recording one of his rages. He has a habit of making me doubt myself and I was getting a bit concerned. When he realized he tried to grab the phone off me. I ended up on the floor face down with him on top of me. Kids saw and it was horrendous. He still blamed it on me though.

Oh and he's also mentioned suicide, not just to me but the kids. He's told the kids I'm a bully, said that he can't stand the sight if my face feelings mutual when am I leaving, in front of the kids. All sorts.

Op you sound like you are very accommodating - a people pleaser? But you blame yourself for enabling his behaviour. I've done the same. Time to stop. It doesn't help anyone.

Also with the pp where his childlike babiour got worse after children and my feeling of being trapped was suffocating.

Christ my post doesn't read well sorry! I'm feeling particularly shit today.

To add, he is also the worlds biggest victim and he needs to be cared for by everyone, including his own children. Toxic shit.

Hello everyone.
Thank you so much for sharing your stories. They sound horrendous, really sad. I am so sorry you went through this and I am glad to hear you are finally on the other side.
I can't lie, I feel scared of DH and unsettled. So far he's respected the separate bedroom thing and I act as if I'm sleeping when I get home in the evening.
However today he called me 2-3 times at work crying 'that I'm all he has etc'. I felt such guilt. I know I shouldn't but I did and I know he just can't handle this.
In the evening I confronted him with his violence which he shockingly totally denies and basically makes it seem as if I'm making it all up.
I have talked to his brother who was shocked and told me point blank "you can't live like this you have to separate". I was shocked as they are so close.
Big difficult question: I now know leaving him may be the only viable way forward to see if that will wake him up. If not, it will have to be divorce. My question is what do you do with the love, the hope, the nostalgia of the good times? Maybe this question is hard to answer...

I obviously meant I act as if I'm sleeping when HE gets home in the evening. He usually returns late.
I have sadly noticed how much calmer I feel when he's not in the house and how my stomach tightens and it's as if my whole body hurts when he is here.

You cannot go on this way. I recognize what you're describing with the tightening up when he is there. Can his brother take him in, at least for a while? That might help him make a transition.... I hope.

Mumndad his brother is in another country. He did say he'll come to visit asap as he's so concerned, my DH is currently cutting himself off from all friends and is refusing to talk to anyone, emotionally pressuring me by saying "I and DC are all he has"

Pudding so sorry to hear your story. Can I ask though, why was it you that left the home?
In my case, I adore our home, it's in my name only and mortgage also in my name only and I would hate to lose it.
So I don't think I should be leaving. But can't see how he could accept to leave unless his brother and friends were involved in the process

Shit he's now come in, came into my room, ignored the almost sleeping, crying, sat in the corner, looking wild eyes etc. What to do?

If you're reading this, you calmly ask him to leave the room. If he will not, leave yourself taking your phone and go into another room, preferably one with a locking door. If you feel he will not pursue you into your son's room, go there.

If he becomes threatening, abusive, or threatens to harm himself call 999. Don't worry about what happens tomorrow, you call so you will be safe tonight.

Get a lock on your bedroom door, a slide bolt is easy to install.

acrossthepond I actually called his brother during his hysteria and then convinced him to talk to him. That helped and he has now calmed down, sat down opposite me and talked to me for the first time in days in a serious way. Phew. Lesson learned: important to put super strict boundaries and be clear! I told him I'm not staying with him as the relationship stands unless things over time change massively.
In bed now safely and feeling calmer!

And to be honest, I don't really believe things will change "massively" unless a miracle happens and by then it may be too late for me anyway. Don't know how I feel anymore about him

Relieved you're ok now OP, I saw your last post but my phone died before I could reply, not that I'd have been much use. It sounds like you did the right thing in the moment.

Op: I left because he never would have. We built our beautiful house together but I knew I couldn't live while waiting for him to sort something out (whuch he wouldn't have). The week after I told him was hell. Lots of hysteria on his part, crying, drinking, saying shit in front I feel the kids. Horrendous. Many people told me to stay in the house, but it was easier for me to do it this way and I'm far too soft.

It may escalate so just make sure you keep things as calmness as possible. I had to bite my tongue so many times but I tried to make sure I was as safe as possible because it could have got physical. Can his brother try talk some sense into him?

If he's anything like ex though it won't make much difference. Keep posting x

Sorry about the typos! I'm using my stupid phone!

I'm glad you're OK. But do realize that he is going to say whatever he thinks you need to hear to enable him to stay. Put that lock on your door.

Remember that houses are only 'bricks and sticks'. Even a 'dream home' can be a hell hole if you are living it in a bad marriage.

pudding when you left where did you go? Did you take children with you? Had you rented a place or something like that?

I'm glad last night DH listened / talked in the end in a logical way. However, ultimately when he says "he will change", a) I don't really believe him and b) I think what he means is he will just "control himself" which basically he has not been able to do so many years. My view is that he has a serious depressive condition with intense separation anxiety and also behaves in a very manipulative way, and at this point if he were to "change" he would need to see a psychiatrist as there are also bits that seem quite mad. I didn't tell him any of this but that is my view, "changing" would involve him taking a good hard look at himself, while for him it just means "being good to please greenleaves" which never works.

greenleaves: i rented a little place, spent the week making it nice for the kids etc. i was lucky I had this option. The children came with me and for the first couple of weeks stayed here with me until he got his shit a little bit together and then we split the child care probably 60/40 more with me.

My ex also has issues with low mood (I wouldn't call it depression as such but he has improved with antid's, I think he is more on the negative spectrum of life iykwim) and also quite bad anxiety. He never used to be like that but its got worse, and certainly more noticeable since I left and that is really tough to watch. But he can still get up every morning and exercise, still have a flirty thing with an old friend of his and arrange for her to come and stay, still drink a lot of alcohol, and not try and change his behavior. i notice he can control his anger when he is anxious with other people, just not me. I think we are so close and in the firing line sometimes you have to remove yourself from that to see how their behavior shouldn't be justified by the fact they have issues. Not all people with depression or anxiety use that to be emotionally abusive to their loved ones.

ex started to see a psychotherapist and I honestly thought that would be the only thing that could maybe change his behavior. He went once, the whole thing was too uncomfortable and he concluded he didn't need it. He hasn't tried again. Speaks volumes.

I have provided him with emotional support, direction and a lot of love. He repaid my by shouting, raging, calling me a cunt, being insecure and uber critical putting his hands around my throat and generally believing he could do what he liked and I would stay. He still thinks I will go back.

It has taken me a while to realise that although I will remain amicable as much as possible, I need to protect myself, and he doesn't deserve all my love. Someone else might do in the future and might just appreciate me.

Good luck whatever you decide to do. And if you wobble, that is fine, its not an easy process to detach emotionally, which is what you need to do in order to make a decision to leave and stay left.

Today, after very firm behaviour and boundaries on my part (which is actually a first for me!) DH is calm and told me realises his out of control anxiety can be experienced by me as violence. He also listed the things he will do to change and finally made a financial arrangement that is clearer.

I however feel pessimistic. I think he deceived himself that with will alone he can change when in fact he suffers I believe with serious issues and needs help. I also think (despite him acknowledging some aspects of my experience) that in fact he underestimates how this is killing me, these ups and downs and outbursts and neighbours hearing happening again and again. It is the first time in 14 years that I not only am able to contemplate separation but am actively hoping to find a way step by step to do it. I just am so exhausted and want peace!

Step by step can be a bit individual. But in general:

1-Become very familiar with your financial position.

Know ALL monthly costs of running your household.

Understand and know where ALL assets (joint and separate) are and the value of each.
Know the amount and source of your monthly income AND his monthly income, both gross and net.
Know the current value of your home as well as mortgage balance

2-Seek legal advice
Use the information in #1 to gather information as to what you can reasonably expect in maintenance payments, division of assets, and the options regarding your home (keep/sell/etc).

3-Investigate the property/rental market in your area
Once you've done 1 & 2, determine if you would rather 'fight' to stay where you are or move elsewhere.

4-Seek support from friends and relatives
This can be done at any time. Do it early if you feel you'll want a second pair of ears when you see a solicitor and a second 'head' to help you make decisions. Do it later if you'd rather wait until you have all your ducks in a row.

Above all, keep what you are doing from your H. The fact that you are doing these things does NOT mean that you are definitely going to divorce. It simply means that you want to make informed decisions about your own future.

acrossthepond thank you for such a helpful clear post!