Marriage problems

[Sadandsoconfused]

Have nc for this.

I've been married for 19 years, together for 25, so since start of uni, have 2DC.
I've had two major episodes of depression, both caused by scary health stuff. One several years ago and one recently and I've had therapy for depression, anxiety and PTSD for a year now.
In recent weeks my marriage has been the focus of my therapy work and it's been very tough. A few things came out which I think I've downplayed but felt angry about without really knowing why.

I'm a strong person normally, a coper, and DH is used to that. There were two separate incidences when I was absolutely rock bottom with depression and he didn't do anything. He probably would have let me kill myself. It was so scary for me what was going on in my brain that I self admitted to a mh hospital as I felt I couldn't keep myself safe.

Went on tablets and recovered fairly quickly. Had years of no problems but recently, due to another health issue I became depressed again.

DH has again not been emotionally supportive at all. He actually said he would not be able to stop myself if I wanted to kill myself anyway. It shocked me and brought back that previous time when I so needed him to be my rock and he's just not getting it.

He does help a lot around the house, is incredibly hands on with the children, and has never complained about the state of the house. Sometimes I've been so bad I wasn't able to do anything all day except the school run.

My therapist has recommended to go for couple therapy together, but DH is absolutely against it. We've had several talks about it and I can't reach him, he's adament it would do more harm than good.
I don't know if we'll manage to get this sorted on our own, I doubt it as he doesn't get what I need from him.
He's not talking about emotions at all, and when I do he goes silent. No hugs or comfort, just awkwardness and maybe an attempt to hold my hand when I'm crying, but mostly nothing. I don't cry normally but recently during my three attempts to talk to him I did.

He's a very rational, analytical and introvert person and I'm outgoing and spontaneous and 97% of the time I'm ok. The 3% when I need him I feel he's not there to catch me and I feel so lonely.
He's always been like this so I feel bad for bringing it up, but it's replicating something from my childhood (lack of care, support, safety) which makes this extra hard and triggering.

I love him very much and want to repair this, but I can't do it all on my own. I'm sure my way of dealing with things don't help, getting angry doesn't help but I'm not aggressive or something, I turn it inwards where it is doing a lot of harm.
I also can't tell him exactly what I need when I'm in such a bad place plus it makes me feel like I'm talking to one of the dc and he shouldn't need micromanaging how to support me.

Has anyone got experience with therapy refusers and how can I make him understand how important this is to me? He is all supportive of me going to therapy on my own, but I feel he thinks this is my issue, I need to go there, get fixed and all will be well again.
I feel so angry about it all and now have to swallop the anger because I don't want to argue in front of the DC.

DH has reverted back to 'all is fine' mode after last night's talk and I can sense him being irritated about me being slightly off with him because 'we talked about it'.

Sorry it's been such a novel.

Sorry, massive cross-post.
OP I'm not sure what you can do when your DH is refusing to engage.

Western, these are my thoughts as well. He coped with his childhood by detaching (so did I) and I think he is still detaching from emotional stuff. I've moved on and learned to let it out, but he hasn't and doesn't want to. For him everything is fine. And it was, because I have never really needed him to be the strong one in our relationship. Except those few times.
I think my therapist wants to help me avoid a lot of heartache while getting to the point of it being a dealbreaker, so in a way cut the time short I take to realise I can't forget it and end up giving him an ultimatum anyway.

Is your therapist really helping you if she is suggesting you leave if your dh doesn't change? We all know that the only person we can change is ourselves. Your marriage sounds basically good and your dh sounds basically a good man who cares and provides.

Of course only you can know if this is good enough for you. My own therapist helped me to find my own strategies for self helping...friends in RL, FB friends with a similar condition, mindfulness and much more. It sounds like your dh shows his love all the time but you aren't seeing it because he's not a hugger.

Don't make any decisions whilst you are depressed and just be very careful you don't throw out the baby with the bath water. Have you confided any of this with your friends?

Actually I think it sounds as though the therapist considers the DH to be part of the problem. There's a massive difference between not being a hugger and being emotionally unavailable.
OP you know everything you have shared with your counsellor and I think you're right that they are hoping sitting in a room together will help you set your boundaries and communicate your needs for the relationship. Don't feel guilty about that.
I suspect your DH may be avoiding the situation because he knows it involves an honest conversation about both your needs.

Matilda,
My therapist doesn't want me to leave him, she wants me to threaten him to leave to force him into therapy. I'm not doing it because it would be manipulative. I want to work at it with him.

I have confided in 2 of my oldest friends, both have known DH as long as I do. Both were shocked about his reaction to the times I felt suicidal and thought he isn't used to me being weak.
Both said he is emotionally a Neanderthal and one said she never quite understood how we two could get together. Not helpful that last bit.

It was a clear case of opposites attract, and we've had brilliant times with me being the strong part, the organiser, I've pulled him along to things he would never have done on his own, and he enjoyed it. He has actually changed a lot, is a lot more social and learned small talk (to a degree). Apart from that I've always thought he is the most attractive man on the planet and still fancy him rotten after 25 years.
He does still approach everything with his analytical mind, when action is needed. I think that is the biggest problem.

Winnie, that's what my sister said. Her husband is not a hugger, he can be an absolute inconsiderate arse at times, but he would always be there for her in those moments.

I'm pretty sure the therapist thinks he's part of the problem. He's triggering my childhood coping mechanisms, which we have worked at very intensely for a year.

I'm not feeling guilty about wanting to tell him what I need. In fact, despite of what some posters have said, I think my emotional needs are quite low. Otherwise we wouldn't have had such a long marriage already.

If this is how he's always been, and he's clearly not skilled in this area, then I'd never issue an ultimatum tbh. It's effectively telling him he has to become who he isn't in order for you to still love him, which is awful and almost abusive imo.

YOU need to decide if YOU can accept him as he is. If you can't, do him a favour and end the relationship.

My view is that it's pretty toxic, generally, to expect ones partner to be supportive in every way one needs, throughout ones life. People have strength and weaknesses, and expecting one man to be all things is bordering on cruel, especially when said man has clearly and consistently always been a person whose strengths aren't in the area you want him to have them.

I suspect a lot of your pain regarding this is based on the misconception that a romantic partnership somehow "should" meet every need. If you let go of that misconception, and instead work on finding other sources of support in areas that your dh is poor at, you'll do much better emotionally.

But the key is to actually accept him as he is and take active, positive ownership of how you're going to get your needs met. Not to begrudgingly accept that he has "failed" you and now you must martyr yourself by turning to friends to address his failures. If that makes sense.

Your therapist sounds a little deluded, sorry.

I feel that it's sad that you've had enough counselling to understand yourself and what you believe are your needs but DH, who most likely needs counselling equally but can't face it (is how I would see it rather than plain refusing) is being coerced into it. I can't see it working following that path.
I would say he needs counselling of his own and by himself for many months or years before he is ready for joint counselling to help to support you.
I say this because it took me years to ever get proper counselling where I was honest about my past. For one you don't appreciate there's anything wrong with you and two it's upsetting and scary and seems more sensible not to go there.
If he was able to go for his own counselling that would be the way to go imo.

I am horrified at the thought of him going away and leaving you with a new born baby in that situation. That really is beyond "not being good with emotions" and more like inconsiderate bordering on cruel.

It sounds like he does have issues and might benefit from therapy if he has something he wants to change about himself

However it is clear that he is not ready to tackle his childhood issues. It is unreasonable to demand he has sorts out his issues on your timescale. In any case it would take years.

It seems likely that he will never be able to give you the emotional support you want.

I would suggest you stop looking for solutions that involve him changing.

My dh has depression and at times it has been quite serious. He was hospitalised on many occasions but not for a few years now. I am a very level headed person and in the midst of the storms l have kept the family together. We did go to counselling for a very brief time and the counsellor said to him at one stage the best decision you have ever made is to marry this woman as she is a very stabilising influence in your life. I identify with your dh here. When someone is very emotional the instinct is to stay level headed as the alternative is chaos. I have learned through counselling myself how to live a very happy life in spite of my dhs depression. I would advise you to accept the dh you have. Maybe he believes that both of you letting it all hang out in counselling will ultimately destroy you both . He will have very strong feelings about your depression which if were said could never be unsaid.
Giving him an ultimatum could land you in a situation of even greater unhappiness.

jouu
I've already said I won't give him an ultimatum.
I fail to see it's toxic to want a partner to be there for you in times of extreme need.
A lot of what you wrote seems a bit weird and I don't know how you made those assumptions based on what I wrote. Romantic partnership, me being a martyr etc.

Naiceham I think it was extremely dangerous, but thankfully I could count on my friends.

June,
the thing is I'm not very emotional. I have learned through therapy to let my emotions out and to ask for help.
I'm equally level headed, normally.
He's completely unable to let anything out. Maybe he fears he'll say something he'll regret, I don't know.

It is perfectly reasonable to want your partner to give you emotional support in times of need.

It is unreasonable to think you will ever get it from someone who has given any emotional support in the last 25years and is OK with that. It's shit and deeply annoying but it is the reality.

Gah! It is unreasonable to think you will ever get it from someone who has not given any emotional support in the last 25years and is OK with that.

I think a lot of posters are missing the point.
I'm guessing OP that you think you haven't communicated clearly. In fact,you still (to a certain extent) think your DH doesn't understand how important it is for him to attend the counselling and that it's your responsibility to bring him to that place. You can't. However, where I differ from the posters saying you shouldn't expect him to change or you shouldn't give him an ultimatum, is that I think your therapist has identified you have a problem with boundaries (probably stemming from your childhood). Your DH has benefited from your inability to say 'this isn't acceptable'. It's not manipulative to say 'it's not acceptable for you to leave me on my own with a new baby when I'm experiencing severe trauma'. Any relationship that can't support one person saying that, isn't a relationship imo.
I also think this isn't about your DH (and that's what others are missing). It's about you communicating your needs and boundaries, and tbh you can't do that unless your DH is in the room.

I think probably the opposite of everything jouu has said. It is pretty fundamental to intimacy and closeness in a relationship that you are willing to communicate and share how you feel with one another. That is not an unreasonable expectation to have when you marry someone, in fact how can you even know someone if they don't let you in? My parents are like that, as are many in their generation, living parallel lives, not really knowing each other or even themselves. Does anyone today really think that is healthy? OP deserves a man who will open to her and who will be able to support her through the bad times, everyone does for goodness sake. The problem is that OP didn't marry someone like that, you would have known he was a closed book from the start, but now that you are working through your pain and growing through the therapy, you are beginning to see and feel that it is not ok. He doesn't meet your needs. I wonder if you married him because you are not used to someone being there for you, maybe you did/do not feel you deserve that?

As for solutions, ultimatum or not? I know I would choose ultimatum, but maybe you are not there yet. Maybe you still think it could be OK, that the two of you can muddle through this until you feel better and you don't need him so much. I do hope that therapy gives you much greater confidence and clarity on what you need from a partner. And I also hope your DH has some sort of awakening. But he does sound like he does need some "help" to see it, I think you need to shock him. Or badger him. Or make a lot of effort to explain to him what it is. But don't stop stating what you need from him.

Winnie, that's why the therapist wanted him to come in. We were going to have that chat, and she would have helped me put it in words.
(I was and still am indeed quite unable to say that it's not been acceptable.)
He refused and said he didn't want to be blamed for my depression.
Nobody ever blamed him, it was a reactive depression because I nearly died after giving birth.
The second episode was triggered by the recurrence of the same illness (the one they told me was a very rare complication in childbirth but as I didn't want more dc I would be fine)

After a few more sessions the therapist gave up on the idea of him coming to see her, so she recommended getting a separate couple therapist, to go and see someone we both don't know.

Interestingly DH and I come from similar backgrounds to you two. I made his individual therapy a condition of staying and trying to make the marriage work. It's as much for his benefit as mine - it gives him an outlet to look at himself and define his boundaries of what support he can/can't give.

A huge part of marriage is supporting one another, if your partner had a horrific physical illness would it still be ok to swan off/opt out and just ignore it???

Also crucially I want DH to "be there" for our DC otherwise the same cycle will repeat in them - they will pick emotionally unsupportive partners!

Perhaps the difference for us was that I genuinely was going to leave it wasn't a threat, also I have NO-ONE else neither does H, no family that could give a sh*t and no friends. I have had to face the harsh reality that I am completely on my own and yeah I can live like that and survive but one of the reasons I am on my own is because I'm married which restricts the ability to build relationships elsewhere that are supportive (platonic or otherwise).

I described it that I have the disadvantages of marriage without any benefits bar financially it is easier with 2 wages and one home!

I think when you experience PTSD you really do evaluate your life and relationships and as you said you can't "in-know" what you learnt. I will always know that DH's behaviour pushed me over the cliff and loving him the way I used to I'm not sure is possible.

No matter the rights or wrongs of anything else, I think it's terrible advice from your therapist that you should deliver an ultimatum that you have no intention of carrying out. (Presuming your therapist is well aware that you wouldn't actually leave if your DH still refuses counselling, of course.)

Pippi You sound like my therapist. Yes, she thinks I married him because I felt I didn't need support in that way.
I also knew about his childhood and knew where it came from.

You're also right about the therapy making me realise which needs are not met. The same from my childhood, I managed to repeat that pattern, even though I was very aware to pick a 'good' man, one who wouldn't abuse me. At least I broke that cycle.

I will try to talk to DH again later on, I'm not giving up.

It would be good if he could have therapy on his own ..nothing to do with you but for his own sake. Then you both would be coming together from a healthier place.

Have you tried asking him straight out what he's worried about? Maybe suggest he speaks to the therapist on his own on the phone beforehand to be reassured (or not) and find out what will happen in the session.

RunRabbit
I have asked what he is worried about and he said he doesn't want to be blamed for my depression.
He also thinks it will make things worse if there is a third person who doesn't know us. Well, my therapist knows me very well by now, but he won't see her either.
Actually I haven't asked her if she would see him on his own, her focus was always on having me talk to him while she's there as backup and to 'translate' what I mean if needed.

He doesn't do emotions. It's only been a problem when I've been very down and needed him to support me

Bit puzzled about this, OP. Since life is full of emotions. Wondered how you lived for 25 years with this. Unless ... unless ... not really quite understanding this ....

Probably something for you to consider