Weird title for Relationships, but does anyone who watches Holby City have any words of advice?

[FrazzleRock]

(Sorry another really long post of mine. I seem to be quite the writer when I get going. If you reach the end, I'd really appreciate what you think)

Reason I ask is the past few weeks I've been watching the relationship between Isaac and Dom and it is striking such a huge chord with me.

I've been trying to work out my DP and have noticed how similar his behaviour is to Isaac, and how similar my reaction to him is to Dom. I haven't been able to describe it before seeing this.

DP isn't quite as bad as Isaac, but the similarities are there for sure. I don't know if I am over reacting or just trying to work out what is going on with us but I feel really uncomfortable. DP loves confrontation, almost thrives on it, and I hate it. He will always tell me exactly how it is, no matter how much it hurts me. His father is the same as he openly destroyed me by telling me his thoughts on my miscarriage in front of the whole family. Baby doesn't exist, not a real person yadda yadda... (completely wrong to approach me with this, as far as I'm concerned, given how much I am grieving and struggling)
So I guess that is where DP gets it from - learnt behavior.

When DP becomes confrontational (regularly) he is very articulate and uses words and phrases I wouldn't use, and sometimes have never even heard of. This makes me feel inferior and also pretty confused and makes me question myself.
He often withholds affection when I'm upset, I have asked for a simple hug in our Relate sessions which he does do, but they are not real hugs. Afterwards he then tends to withhold affection and becomes very very distant which leaves me anxious and more confused and I always end up apologising just to make peace.

I also looked into the concept of Love bombing, I found this article here:www.elephantjournal.com/2016/01/love-bombing-a-seductive-manipulative-technique/

I found myself nodding along enthusiastically all the way through that article.

I don't know if this is real abuse, or I am just very sensitive. This has all come about since we lost our first baby a year ago (an unplanned but beautiful surprise). Before this happened, we had been together for only 8 months. He adored me, worshipped me, constantly told me I'm beautiful, gorgeous etc.. Always lots of compliments, lots of text communication throughout the day. Always very affectionate at home and in public. Loads of hugs and attention.

The first I saw of his anger and resentment was when I spoke about trying again a couple of weeks after our loss. He was so angry with me, sat on the end of the bed staring at me with, what I can only describe as, hate in his eyes. He never really wanted his own children so bringing this up was difficult for me.

We did actually try again, but lost that one too. Since then he has refused to try again for financial reasons - he realised we really can't afford it and he is still very much on the fence about having his own children.
I am struggling with this so much and have written various threads about not ever having that healing from another baby. I want to make peace with it, after all I am very lucky to have two DC from previous marriage, but finding it virtually impossible as I am triggered all day everyday.

If I cry in front of him he says I am emotionally blackmailing him, so I try to avoid getting upset around him. He knows I want to make peace with his decision, but everytime he berates me for being upset, I plummet further into depression. He then withholds affection when I need it the most and I apologise for being upset and apologise for my depression.

He often says he has lost the Frazzle he met and fell in love with because I have been so depressed (suicidal even), especially since we stopped trying. I hate the me I am now too, and just want my previous life back again, and I also respect that DP has changed his mind about trying again, so its not like I want him to just say 'lets try again' for my sake. I want to get better and am taking steps to improve my mind, though not much is happening as yet.

He says I am looking for a fix and that it won't happen, that I have to fix myself and not rely on him or anyone else to help me.

I honestly do not know if it is me, if I am totally overreacting, or if his behavior towards me is wrong. I've just never been with anyone like him before with his attitude to treating people and to life in general. He has told me several times that he has made people at work cry and people have told him he is unapproachable. Friends of ours have told me they wouldn't want to get on the wrong side of him. Especially given the fact he is so confrontational and argumentative.

I just never saw this side to him before I fell in love with him. We have now bought a house together (when we found out we were expecting our first baby together) away from the city I grew up in, and my children adore him, despite him being very strict with them. I still adore him, despite all the above. which makes me wonder if it really is abuse. How can I be so in love with someone abusive and crave their affection so much?

Could this be abuse do you think? Or am I just very sensitive and need to pull myself together? Am I reading too much into things?

What a pair of nasty arseholes him and his father are. You have no voice and no permission to have or express your feelings. You can do better.

I don't know how to get away.
Genuinely don't.
We bought this house last June and nearly all our wages go into the mortgage, bills, food, uniform, children's clubs etc.

We literally cannot afford to move out. Even if we put the house back on the market, who knows how long it'll take to sell.

We uprooted the DC from their life in SW London to a village in Kent. They have finally settled and made friends. How can I uproot them again?
As a single parent on a moderate income, there was a no way in hell a bank would mortgage me in my own. Rent will cost more than a monthly mortgage.

Practically, I feel stuck.
Emotionally, the last thing in the world I want to do is separate. I can't help thinking this is all just some phase, it's how he deals with other people's pain perhaps.
Maybe I just need to give him space and grieve on my own. I have friends who are compassionate and there for me.

Maybe I am a cunt to him. Maybe al this pain I have is too much for him. If my pain stops then being a cunt (ie crying and grieving) will stop. Then we will be happy again.

I just need to find a way, without the love of my DP, to make peace with my losses and make peace with the fact the hole they left will not be filled by another child, like so many others get to experience.

I'm starting 1:1 counselling again next week.
I need to stop relying on my DP for love and compassion. It's just not his thing anymore.

I do miss it so very much though.
He was such a wonderful and caring man.
I genuinely felt so lucky to have finally met someone who truly loved me and who I truly loved back. Life was going to be ok.
But it wasn't.

I think your reaction to what happened has been so extreme and unusual that it would be difficult for anyone to deal with that in their partner and he must be exhausted by it. BUT there is no excuse for the names etc he calls you and I can only see this getting worse.

The wonderful caring man was an mirage designed to draw you in, that version does not exist any more.

He's the one who has daddy issues and this is very much a case of like father like son. His father was a house devil as well and this man is of and from the same mould. The rotten apple that is he did not fall far from the rotten tree that is his family of origin. The only person this man cares about is his own self; his father could not deal with any emotions either. Look too at what his ex wife

I maintain that you are co-dependent in relationships. I also think that this individual targeted you deliberately.

NEVER think of yourself as that c word again Frazzle!!!. How dare you put yourself down like that. Grieving and crying for your losses does in no way make you abnormal; you are a giving and compassionate human being and your reactions are normal. His are not. He has done a bang up job on you to date and to me bears many hallmarks of "The Loser". He is stifling you completely.

Your children and you deserve a brighter future free of this individual.

I actually think that you've both reached a point where you're both so set in your position that it's impossible to break free.

From your side your reaction to the MC's was to essentially bring an invisible baby into all your lives, give it a name, a gender (your loss was at nine weeks iirc so gender not known at that stage but you decided it was a dd,) encourage the family, even your children to talk about the baby, their sister, in a way as if she had been born and died rather than the fact that it was an early loss. It is a very extreme reaction and while I have every sympathy for your losses, I also have every sympathy for those who have surrounded you during this time and who have been a part of your grieving process.

From his side it sounds as if he has snappeD. He knows that you've had mc's, but in truth, they were early losses, and as harsh as it is he is right, people do have miscarriages all the time, but people rarely react to them in such an extreme manner. If I'm brutally honest I would imagine that your reaction is enough for him to. Not want to ttc again, regardless of the finances etc. But I'm wondering whether after a year there is nothing left for him to say because you don't really want to hear it. Cuddling and sympathy is likely to feel like colluding in your fantasies about the baby, which is possibly why he's gone so far the other way. He doesn't have a middle ground, because at this stage he may be finding it hard to remain sympathetic.

Clearly he doesn't know how to react, but equally he's never been in this situation before. You had quite a hard time on your previous thread iirc, and all of those people have only read your position once. He has lived with it for the past year and has reached the point of no return.

Sometimes things happen within relationships which make those relationships untennable. The truth is that there is no way back from this, because those MC's are always going to have happened, and this year is always going to have happened.

you need to have a conversation, hopefully without emotion on both sides, possibly you could even write him a letter, but talking about how the relationship as it is now just isn't working any more. As you both stay together you are both going to be so set in the places you individually are that it's not possible to just put those things down and walk back to each other. So you need time apart to find yourselves again.

I don't think it is that unusual. Losing a child is probably the worst thing a parent will ever go through.
I'm grieving appropriately, in my opinion. And grieving very much like anyone else. Certainly all the loss parents I've met on online support groups. My grief is nothing compared to how they're handling theirs.
Some even have portraits done of them with their unborn baby. (Which even I find a bit odd). The main difference I can see between me and them is they have their partners full support. Even years later. Their partners celebrate their baby's due date together, they hug, they talk to each other when one of them is struggling, and most importantly, they are kind to each other.
My friend at work for instance, when his wife calls him in the day I can hear his soothing kind words to her when she's clearly called him upset about their loss.
Why am I so different? Why can't DP do that for me?
I can't call him at work. I did do once, just to see how he was and he got angry with me. Said I was checking up on him because I'd sent him the same "how are you" in a whatsapp a few hours previously which was unanswered. It was hours later and I just wanted to check he was ok and see how his day was going.
But I got told off.

I mean this gently, you don't get allocated a CPN if you're 'grieving appropriately' for an early miscarriage. Your reaction has been extreme and I know you've been very hurt when DPs parents have said that they don't consider they have lost a Grandchild and find it disturbing when you talk as if they have.

Your reaction has been very much outside of the norm which you don't have control over but it has clearly been very difficult for everyone around you who find it difficult to relate to the way you have responded.

It may be that it's not a case of dismissing your extreme grief but just not understanding it or being able to relate to it.

I think Wannabe has hit the nail on the head.

I have seen your other threads and I feel for you, your grief is so strong you can feel it through the screen.

In my opinion he is a stone cold bastard and
your reaction is so extreme it must be a nightmare to live with. And it's been going on for well over a year by now iirc.

I can't see how your relationship can ever come back from this, and I can't see either of you changing enough for this to ever be a healthy dynamic. It's incompatibility at a very basic level, when this happened you were both in the honeymoon phase, This is now real life and the real yous. You need to split and have some serious treatment for your MH issues. This will be affecting your children massively.

wannabe DP was 100% on board with deciding to get be our baby an identity. Neither of us were comfortable called our baby "it". Our baby was never an "it". Our baby was a real person with all organs and limbs, little fingers and toes. A real person. There is no denying that. It biology. Science.
Our baby had everything, she just needed to grow.
My reaction to losing our child (and then another very early on) is not that extreme. Our child died. That is a fact. When your child dies, it is impossibly hard.
I have spoken to so many loss parents and they are all struggling, some even more than me. They grieve in their own way. Like someone said previously. Grief is not linear. It is not Thame same for any two people and the way I grieve for my child is no weirder than someone else.

I requested help. I am getting CBT because I am struggling with my grief. Mainly because I'm not getting compassion at home from my partner who should have my back and should be able to cuddle me when I'm having a bad day.
I get so much worse when he gives me the silent treatment and withdraws his love and affection for me. When he berated me and says I'm not giving enough, despite me doing a really hard job to fix things for myself and to show him I love him.
The truth is, I simply cannot do anything right by him. What I give is never ever enough.

I genuinely have not met anyone like him. So emotionally cold, heartless, direct, and brutal. When his loved one is struggling

THAT is what isnt normal.

Sorry for errors, I'm using my phone and autocorrect keeps changing my bloody words!!

But OP, you didn't lose a child, you had an early miscarriage. There is a difference.

I mean this kindly, but I think it's possible that giving this loss an identity, a name, imagining that it was a girl, wanting the DC to talk about their sister and the rest of the family to talk about a niece/cousin/grandchild is part of the reason why you are finding coming to terms with this MC so difficult. Because you are talking about it as a child which you lost. But you didn't, you had a early miscarriage. Yes, it's hard. Yes, the fact that there won't be another baby is likely to be adding to your upset as well.

But part of your healing process is about letting go of the child you wanted this to be and accepting that this was a miscarriage and not a child bereavement.

You said in your last post that losing a child is the worst thing any parent can go through. I agree, but in this instance you haven't been through losing a child. You have two children already, look at them, imagine them in your head now, surely you know deep down that losing this pregnancy does not equate to losing one of those children? That it's not remotely the same?

Your relationship has no future. Both of you are going to destroy each other and yourselves, so you need to walk away from that. But you also need to get continued help with your own MH so you can move forward with your own life.

wannabe No. I lost a child. I loved that child just as much as I love my living DC. If you want to believe that an unborn baby is not a child, then that is totally your opinion. But my child was my child.
Your opinion would certainly not go down very well on the babyloss support groups I'm in. I sincerely hope you don't go around telling loss parents this in real life.
I read something the other day in response to someone's insensitive MC comment. That poor loss mother said "which of your children could YOU live without?"
I know my response would be "none, I can't live without any of them.
My child was an absolute unlikely conception given my horrendous fertility issues. Never in my wildest dreams would I have imagined falling pregnancy by surprise.

By the way, DP has just told me he has found my MN threads.
I guess our separation is now out of my hands now.

I think grief has torn you apart, I think it's made you different people unsure how to move on.

I think he has grieved the unborn baby you lost, I think you are grieving the child that baby could have become, had the potential to be. You want to replace the baby you lost he does not. You want him to save you from your grief and to fix you he does not know how. He is angry at the loss of his child and the fact that a year on he can't save you he does not know how, he is not enough for you and has withdrawn.

the truth is that you can't do anything right by each other, you can't help,each other. This one catastrophic event has forced you down different paths. You say you can't live without any of your children, you need to change that mindset to I have to learn how to cope without one of my children.

You need to focus on you, you can't rely on anyone else, putting it on him to say you from your overwhelming grief is more than anyone can take, no one can go that he has withdrawn. Time apart I think may be the best thing for both of you

I'm hiding this thread.

I posted on your last thread about your miscarriage that although very sad, it wasn't the same as losing a baby.

My DD1 died aged 1 month. I had gone full term with her. I am sorry (and you won't agree anyway) but a 9 week old miscarriage is not the same as losing a baby and I find it upsetting you keep referring to it as so.

I hope you get the help you need.

I'm so sorry op, this is very hard for everyone.

I'm not sure how to say this.

I've had many miscarriages due to health problems. Some very early like you and two much later.

I found them all difficult but particularly the later ones.

I have been blessed with two dc though. And if I had lost one of them after they had actually been born...the loss would be incomparable.

This is said with kindness but your reaction has been very abnormal. We all grieve in different ways but it sounds like yours is affecting your judgement and spilling in to your relationships with those around you.

I realise you are hurting op but please don't go around saying an mc at 9 weeks (yes it is painful) is the same as actually losing a child that has been born and alive. At the very least not to anyone who has, it's beyond cruel.

I wonder whether this is the reason why the DP is so angry rather than sympathetic? Because sympathy is having no impact - it is merely allowing the OP to continue under the apprehension that she has lost a child, and this is having an impact on everyone around her.

From the outside it does appear that the OP's dp is being cruel, but I imagine that living with this kind of reaction all the time must be increasingly difficult. If it was a family member you could distance yourself, and in all honesty I would distance myself from someone who insisted on a nine wk mc being referred to as niece/granddaughter/cousin etc and wanting the children to be a part of that. It's not healthy and clearly the OP needs help. And if there are actual groups out there who encourage this kind of thinking then they are not a healthy place to go for support. There are plenty of MC groups out there who give support to women who have been through miscarriage, undoubtedly even ones who take into account that trying again is not an option. But encouraging the thinking that a nine week miscarriage is losing a child should IMO be actively discouraged. Because no good can come from it, the people around that person will become increasingly frustrated/intolerant of the view which in turn will lead to the individual becoming more isolated and cut off from genuine sources of support.

. I am of course referring only to people in the OP's situation who have been through early miscarriage, not women who have had late MC/stillbirth/have lost a living child...

I am hiding this thread too. thesnowfairy I am truly very sorry for your loss. It is beyond horrific to go through this

However, what is disgracefully cruel and highly insensitive, is people telling a grieving mother that she cannot and must not grieve for her baby in the way that she needs to. A loss is a loss. This is a well known fact and phrase amongst all loss parents. No one's grief can be compared to another. In all the babyloss uspport groups I am in this goes without saying and everyone, no matter if they lost their baby at 3 months old, or at 5 weeks gestation, has eachother's backs. The only problem is that a very high majority of them are trying again or have gone on to have another child.

I obviously have no idea how other loss parents are feeling internally and no one knows how much pain I am feeling either.
All I can say is my heart hurts so much I physically want to disappear forever. Sometimes I want to evaporate into thin air and never come back, just to make the pain stop. My chest constantly burns up and my throat tightens just thinking of my little child who I didn't even get to kiss goodbye. No funeral, no acknowledgement of my beautiful baby. Except one group of friends who sent me some beautiful flowers and another who donated to the Miscarriage Association for me.
What upsets me is my baby's own family cannot be compassionate and cannot be sensitive.
I genuinely cannot imagine a pain like it. My baby was my child. My baby had all they needed, organs ( a brain, a heart etc) , limbs, toes, fingers. All that needed was for my baby to grow. And even if she didn't have everything she needed, who's to say whether I should grieve one way or another? Who has that right to tell someone else how they should be feeling, and how they see their baby?
Mumsnet used to be a place to be safe, to release all the upset. But now all I see is bullying and people who want to do their best to trigger someone. Someone who, because of the most painful thing a mother can experience, sometimes feels suicidal. How the fuck is it right to tell that person they're grieving wrong?
I am astounded that my loss is being so downplayed by some of you. It is beyond disgraceful and inhumanely unkind.

I was actually having a fairly good day today since DP has been so wonderful, and now, stupidly, I let cruel comments get to me and I have taken a step back again.

To all the others, thank you so much for your understanding and for your sensitivity.

You'll be pleased to read my DP has suddenly switched to being the wonderful DP he always was. It's like he has suddenly seen the light. Seen that all I need is compassion and a hug and he's been incredibly loving and exactly what I need since Friday evening.

It's like a huge weight has been lifted off my shoulders. I feel like I can cry and not make him angry anymore. I feel like I can finally start to get better again.
I even bought the step sister's baby a little early present. It killed me to do it, but I wanted to at the same time. I showed DP and he gave me the biggest most genuine hug I've had in a long time. I just hope they like it.

To those who wish to hurt others by downplaying their losses, shame on you. And I sincerely hope this never ever happens to you.
This is with me for life now, I have to learn how to be the new me.

Thanks again to those who understand. Your words have been very helpful . I actually don't think DP knew how much he was emotionally killing me. But know he's my DP again and I am so so relieved. He's going to let me grieve and give me all the time I need.
Because of this I genuinely think I can start to get better, one step at a time....

Op. You are entitled to your feelings. You own them. Don't let anyone invalidate your reality. Telling you how you should feel instead of asking how you do, is invalidating your personhood.

People are entitled to their own feelings. Imposing your version of reality which doesn't correspond to the way the rest of the world sees things is the problem here.

OP wants her family and the rest of the world to see her miscarriage as a lost child who was part of the family. And they don't see it that way which is where the conflict has occured.

To go along with OPS view of things would be colluding with her unusual beliefs which wouldn't be at all helpful.

Thank you music That is exactly how it feels.

Denim No, they are not unusual beliefs whatsoever. Go on any babyloss support group and you will see how usual these "beliefs" are.
Even charities such as The Miscarriage Association, Tommys, and SANDS etc all acknowledge babies of any gestation and birth age as our children. To think of our losses as anything less would be highly inappropriate, untruthful, and downright insensitive.

I am actually amazed by your beliefs, but you are totally entitled to those. Just maybe don't blab about those beliefs to someone who has actually lost a child (before or after birth) and is desperately bereft, FYI.

I'm not being mean, it is not helpful for you to say your response is normal.

Your issue with DPS family has been around occasions when they're talking about someone about to give birth and saying it would be nice for cousins to have a girl cousin and you saying they already have one - relating to your miscarriage which was far too early to have any ascribed gender. And when the family say no that isn't true, there wasn't a girl cousin you get upset and feel they are insensitive and not validating you.

Your loss has been very painful for you and I am not detracting from that. You want everyone else to see your miscarriage as a girl baby with a personality and a place in the family and no-one else views it that way. Other people find it disturbing and will continue to see it everytime you want them to talk about the fantasy life you have built around your very early miscarriage.

That's why you are seeing MH services.

And I have had miscarriages before 12 weeks - 1 in 3 pregnancies end that way. So have many of my friends and family members. People have grieved for their loss but seen it as a miscarriage of a tiny fetus, not the loss of a child who was a member of the family and wanted everone else to see it as a member of the family.

It could well be the case that your MH issues to do with pregnancy losses are difficult for you partner and DC to manage; AND your DP is emotionally abusive.

Couples' counselling is not recommended if there is abuse in the relationship.

It sounds like the relationship isn't healthy: for the DCs' sake, it'd be best to leave.

Like a PP I worry when people say DC "adore" someone: IME it often means they are tense around the person and know they can't rely on them.

Moving your DC and reducing financial independence for such a new relationship has not turned out well, but don't compound it by staying in a bad situation (the "sunk cost fallacy")

My "MH issues" are grief. Exacerbated by a second loss, then the loss of not trying again, then exacerbated further by my DC's father announcing his GF's pregnancy (straight after our second loss), then the Step sister, then three more couple in DP's close friendship groups. Followed by insensitive and disrespectful comments about my child.
It is grief. Grief needs compassion. My baby died, unbeknownst to us until I was scanned. Then I had a very early MC.
If only I had been allowed to grieve for my child without hurtful comments.
My child was a real little person. That is not do to with any kind of mental health condition. I am getting treatment because I am grieving and struggling with not being able to get any healing through trying for a Rainbow baby (like the majority of women do).

I am not ill. I am grieving for my baby.
It really is not that difficult to understand.
If I have a "MH condition" then so do nearly all the loss parents I have encountered in the past year.
As someone said to me today on a support group:
"I will ALWAYS grieve that loss. She would be ten now. It's a crappy club to be in and people shouldn't be "competing" for who has the bigger loss. A mother is a mother and a child is a child"

My grief got out of hand because of utter insensitivities and being made to feel completely alone.

I've had enough now.

DP and I are now supporting each other and he is being utterly amazing the past few days.
I won't have a bunch of insensitive strangers on the internet best me down.