Laura Doyle -the surrendered wife

[personalisedmummy]

I'm just wondering if anyone has read any of her books or blogs? And if you have practiced any of the principles

I know some couples who are vice versa, the woman does it all and the man doesn't worry his pretty head about it. In at least one case, he's the sole earner too. His job to earn the money, hers to do everything else with it. Whatever works I suppose.

Amarina, I don't think what you describe that's the same as being a 'surrendered wife' per se, more a division of labour you happen to have in your family.

Silent, what you are describing could be what is actually happening in the 'surrendered wife' scenario too, but the wife would make it seem as if he had made decisions and done everything.

Having said that, I know many women with husbands who take care of all the finances. It often happens with very high earning husbands with SAH wives, where money is constantly being moved about between different companies, funds etc.

Just because this is true for you doesn't mean it is the trend or the norm. I am in this situation and I manage all the finances, all our investments, I manage our investment portfolio, I track spending, I manage our properties including overseas, I move money around, I hedge foreign exchange, as do many of my female counterparts in similar positions. It's not beyond the remit of many SAHMs to do this. Please don't perpetuate the ditzy clueless "cared for" stereotype. It infantilises women.

Amarina - you are putting yourself in a dangerous position. That's all.

Naiceham - Well I admit it would be a steep learning curve. But DH has a will - its complicated but everything is set out there in terms of accessing funds. In the case of divorce, we would be fine financially.

I think this "surrendered wife" notion really puts people on the defensive, but any woman living like this would be doing so consciously and only for as long as she believes it suits her. So many more women are in abusive relationships and don't even realise they are.

My DH is British but of Middle Eastern (non Muslim) descent where these kind of ideas are still prevalent anyway and it's more a case of how far you opt out of them, rather than in.

My ex-husband got me this book when I really started pushing him to stop being a man child and grow up.
It was a defining moment in our relationship as I saw through the bullshit and years of helping him while he dragged us under. I realised that he was never going to change. He wanted me to lower my expectations.
I laughed a lot, gave it back to him and divorced him.
He hasn't yet found anyone who thinks he is worth surrendering to.

Thanks book.

Ha ha! Well done Raymond!

Raymond

Load of bollocks. Justification by weak women who stay in shit, unequal relationships because they are too scared of the unknown. The only thing being surrendered is self respect and the self itself, which is no way to live. Handy for some though now that the old rubbish of 'staying together for the sake of the children' is not generally appected as the right thing to do.

Hm, that makes me wonder. Maybe anyone who finds it makes their lives easier should check if their DH is emotionally abusive, controlling type. I suppose if you are with one and have decided to try to make the best of it (and many women do stay with such men, for various reasons) then this sort of advice might make life more bearable ? But don't try to sell other women on it being an ideal.

This is such an insightful comment on this genuinely horrifying book.

I don't think it's insightful (sorry) I think it's an interesting thought but misguided.

An emotionally (or otherwise) abusive man won't be satisfied by the things outlined in this book because the whole system hinges on the fact that the man adores, reveres and cares for his wife. If you look at the hyper-religious variations which spout the same thing, (e.g. books like "Created to be his help-meet"), the description is that a man should love his wife "As Jesus loved the church". ie, he should put her first, far higher than himself, he should be literally prepared to lay down his life for her.

The glaring problem with the surrendered wife stuff is that it only works if the man is genuinely committed to upholding his end of the bargain. If he does, then perhaps it does work. When it doesn't, it opens women up to all kinds of abuse. This philosophy doesn't acknowledge that abuse exists or can be subtle. That's the glaring problem - and then you're trapped because the whole system is designed to make you dependent on him for some mind boggling reason. Abusive men do not care for their spouses. They are not selfless. They would not lay down their life for anybody but themselves. In fact, we know they often are more willing to lay down others' lives when they believe their own mere lifestyle to be at stake. It doesn't work - a person can't live like that without suffering some kind of erosion to the self (if you prefer less fluffy language, stress and anxiety disorders can be and are caused by living in abusive relationships and the effects of these things can be devastating.)

The coping mechanisms that abuse victims use to placate their abusers and keep themselves safe may look similar to "surrendered wife" tactics but they are not the same thing. It's highly dangerous to suggest anybody in an abusive relationship tries these techniques to improve their marriage. It's just likely to entrench the victim further in the relationship so that when the abuse escalates, which it always does, they will be less able to break away.

In fact neither the expectations for the men or women in these books are realistic. The expectations for men aren't even written down anywhere so fuck knows how they are meant to know what to stick to but from the impression I get it's some super-human level of codependence actually. It's very very clear that the people who write these kinds of things are writing from an idealised point of view and not really grasping the fact that humans are never that perfect.

Bertie I also find your post delightfully insightful.

(It even gave me some unexpected insight into the possible reasons for my failed marriage.)

A lot to think about on a Saturday night! Party on :)

failed *ended marriage I meant

How has this book even sold a single copy?!!

Bertie - yes. My post was a half-formed musing, your analysis is much better.

Great post by Bertie.

I have spent a lot of time, one way or another, around evangelical Christian women (in fact, I could possibly be described as one myself), and the thing no one has ever been able to explain to me is: if this is really about the Christian couple, how come all the instructions are for the wife and the husband's part is got rid of in a subclause?

Give one person all the power and trust him to be benevolent....believe that he will be immune to the corrupting influence of power

Good grief. This is a very old book, isn't it? I remember watching her on one of the morning shows in the US when her book first came out, it must have been 15 years ago or more.

I had a friend who read this book and offered it to me (!). She had a very child-like world view and her marriage pretty quickly broke down, and she lost custody of her children and no longer sees them. It's a very sad story.

YY formerpig.

Dragon glad you weren't offended :) It was a good starting point to explore the idea.

Justification by weak women who stay in shit, unequal relationships because they are too scared of the unknown.

Not always demon : I stayed in a shit, unequal relationship where I had my ribs and jaw broken, bitten regularly, all my money (from a very well paid job) was put into a 'joint' a/c that was tightly controlled by him and scared witless for my life not because I was weak. Getting out of that marriage with 3DC in tow shows how strong I was fundamentally. It's far too simplistic to say these women are weak.

I was sexually abused as a child. Badly & for years. My boundaries and sense of self were fucked. I needed to surrender in my marriage because it was my normal. I was comfortable with abuse because it was all I had known. So don't dismiss and direct your rage necessarily at the wives. Who knows the reasons behind their choices? I prefer to direct my rage at society that allows both men & women to allow the subjugation of a swath of people just because they possess a vagina. I have just graduated with a masters and part of my degree looked at hegemonic masculinity. It is disgustingly pervasive and prevalent and This is why texts such as 'The surrendered wife' become published.

Gertrude

Of course any ire needs to be reserved to the abusers, some of whom use the ideas promoted in this book as a justification for their actions. 'You did not surrender enough so I have to punish you' kind of crap.

IME women in abusive, violent (or 'just' emotionally abuseive) relationships simply have no clue about just HOW strong they are. Because strong they are to survive under awful circumstances. It is much easier to be 'strong' when one is a good relationship (and had a happy upbringing with good role models, a good sense of self and boundaries).
There is nothing weak about abused women - and if some of them seek to use 'surrendered' tactics to make life more bearable? Survival trumps all IMO. Needs. must.

I wasn't referring to women in abusive relationships - the dynamics in one are not comparable to a ' surrendered wife' scenario in my mind. As Bertie points out, in the book the husband's role in that sort of set up is to protect, care for and love their wives, something that abusive men are incapable of. I too was trapped in a horribly abusive relationship for many years, I still suffer from physical and mental scars, and have suffered from PTSD ever since, as have my DC's. One of my DC's still suffers from the after effects of where his father physically assaulted him in a violent rage. It took that, 14 years, many miles and a change of name to get away from him. I don't think women 'surrender' in those situations, I realise it is far for intricate than that, and that trauma bonding etc is likely to play a part.

I was referring to the sort of person who tolerates a selfish husband, turns a blind eye to affairs, stays in a relationship where constant bickering is likely to be damaging their children as it's easier to stay and do nothing than to leave and face the unknown.

Sorry- am on on some quite heavy painkillers for back pain so not being as clear and eloquent as I would like.

to the others who have been in abusive relationships - it's certainly not a weak person who manages to escape.