Was this abusive or 'experimentation?'

[confusion77]

When I was between 7 and 9, I recall going into the shed, or other out of the way places, with brother, step brothers, neighbours boys. All or some of them. They varied in age from same age as me to 5 yes older. We would show each other our 'bits' and they boys would press their penises to my vagina. Nothing internal AFAIK. Sometimes they told me to kiss their penises and they would do the same back.

I can't remember if they had erections. I don't recall being 'made' to do it. Looking back, I really really don't know what to make of it.

Curiosity is normal, but those situations went beyond curiosity, and were not mutual.

I should really name change for this but I'm sort of done hiding.

I would follow others advice and seek counselling (through the NHS if you can't afford it.)

I had similar experiences to this when I was between the ages of 7 and 8. My memories are a little hazy but it lasted for about a year. The boys involved ranged in age from the same age as me to about 12 years old. It also sometimes involved penetration but mostly the things you have described above. I didn't tell anyone until I was 19.

I have struggled in the past and sometimes do now on whether to class this as abuse. I know it was but I always compare it to other people's experiences who have been abused by adults, the abuse seems far more clear cut then.

I'm glad that it hasn't affected you massively but again I would seek help, even for some reassurance and just having someone to talk to.

Unfortunately for me the repercussions have been massive. I have been unable to hold down any relationships, have many hateful feeling towards my family and have massive issues around sex and have never made it past the first stages of therapy.

You mentioned that your brother and step brothers were involved in this. Have they ever said anything about it to you?

I understand OP why you're asking, back then it was "just doctors and nurses" and parents would stop it if they witnessed it but considered it "normal" exploration/curiosity, and other than stopping it, nothing else would be said/done and it wasn't considered a big deal, more of a normal phase that they just needed to be guided away from..

Forward to now where it's always called a "safeguarding issue" and considered mimicing learnt behaviours, that or outright abuse..

There's got to be some in-between situations.. but what/where's the line?

I think these sorts of situations can arise through no real fault if anyone. Ideally the parents would have been keeping a closer eye but we don't all assume our 5-12 yr olds are behaving inappropriately out of our view. Most of the time kids are not up to this stuff. This is why it's so important that all children are taught what is appropriate and what is not so that blind curiosity doesn't lead to this and if things are going in this direction the children speak out quickly to parents to get it stopped.

I personally think those suggestions of talk to your GP and go get counselling are totally totally rediculous. OP has said she's not traumatised. Abuse is very serious but making this into something and telling the OP she is damaged and needs help is very dangerous advice in my opinion.

Never spoken to step brothers about it. Only spoken to brother (the one with learning diffs) when I was telling him to stop, once I was a bit older. Never discussed afterwards. I don't think he really understood it was wrong, was maybe stuck at that age of experimentation.

Sorry Botero that you have been through similar. I'd how old you are, I am nearly 40. I did have huge issues with my family when I was in my late teens to mid to late 20's. Various reasons, I don't think related to this, although I think my relationship with my mum was affected by the way so treats my brother.

I don't have any sex issues, maybe a phase of somewhat lax morals in my youth but that's not all that unusual I don't think.

I hope you manage to feel better about it in time.

Inthenick - it's views like yours that make me question whether I was abused or I'm messed up naturally. I don't think anyone has been ridiculous on this thread but have kindly suggested that she talk to a counsellor if she feels uncomfortable about it.

confused77 - I think the fact that your brother has learning difficulties puts him mentally at a younger age and not in the position of an abuser as such. I still think that what happened to you wasn't right and if you do feel uncomfortable to find a counsellor to speak to.

I would only consider it abuse if at the time you didn't want it to happen and were manipulated, or forced to allow this to happen and feel it was abuse. The age differences don't sound too big between you and the boys. They might question if you abused them, it's also possible although I'm sure you didn't.

I personally think those suggestions of talk to your GP and go get counselling are totally totally rediculous. OP has said she's not traumatised. Abuse is very serious but making this into something and telling the OP she is damaged and needs help is very dangerous advice in my opinion.

completely agree. this happened over 30 yrs ago when times were very different, children were different - no internet with virtually no porn about, education was different - there was very little sex education in schools and I'm guessing most parents didn't tell their kids much about sex either, standards were different etc. etc.

Fresta - I can't say I was forced to do it, rather told to and expected to. And did. I didn't come up with any of the ideas myself.

I do wonder where they got it all from, as especially the kissing part, pre Internet/easily accessible port, they should have had no idea about this stuff.

I participated in similar aged 7 or 8 (we were all of similar age). In my case it was definitely experimentation with no coercion or abusive overtone - we were very innocent really - no erections or penetration or even kissing. Just trying to work out what this sex thing was. We were eventually caught by a friend's mum and told to stop. And we did.

Can't say it's ever bothered me but I can see how something carried a bit further or with a greater imbalance of ages or power might quite easily cross the line into abuse.

If it makes you feel uncomfortable I think you could say that it was abuse, perhaps, dare I say at the milder end of the spectrum? You were young and naive, younger than the boys so please don't blame yourself.

I experienced something similar at a similar age, (I was too naive/stupid to understand) I'm sure a few of us did.

Young girls who are naive are easy targets - can you imagine a self-confident type who can obviously look after herself being in this situation? No, thought not.
Some counselling may help but please, please don't blame yourself. You are not a dirty/horrible person - they were in the wrong. Learn from the past and then put it behind you - which is where it belongs.

First reaction was to say it's quite normal. A lot of children play doctors and nurses and do it hidden from view.
At 7 or 9 years old, I would consider that normal.
I'm more unconfortable about the age gap with some children and the fact that some of these 'children' won't have been children. They will have been 14yo and adolescent which, IMO is quite different.

Which makes me think that for some of the people involved it was experimenting but there might have been one or two of the older ones who used the situation to their advantage. Depending on mature or not these teenagers were, it might still have been experimenting. Or it could be seen as 'abuse'.
It's hard to tell TBH.

However, if you don't feel it was abusive or that you were forced to do it, why is it that it's coming back to you now and that you are wondering?

I think that nowdays we are much more open to what is and isn't abuse/acceptable behaviour and some stuff that were seen as 'acceptable' now isn't.
Which means I think you also need to put stuff into context.

I agree with Mariepoppins. I recall all that type of stuff going on as a kid in the 70s. not often, but do rememeber it. The age gaps were not more than a year or two but definately boys and girls showing their bits etc. I am sure all equally participated. I remember us all being fascinated by porn mags found under the seat of a friends dads van. We hid one at one point and everyone used to look at it. I was maybe 7-9? Exploration of the secrets of girls and boys etc It was an age of no internet and little or no sex ed until high school. It didnt last long and I am sure no one was effected long term.
There is a fine line however when age gaps widen and more initmate touching and kissing went on as OP described.
Could well of been a case of older child taking advantage.
In this day and age I'd certainly worry about for example a 11 year old doing this with a 8/9 year old - would ring massive alarm bells as nowadays i'd expect all DC age 5+ to know the 'pants rule' .

I also think this is quite common and would consider it only abuse if you were forced or uou forced the boys, and I've had similar and know of similar and it would have been in the seventies also. So I'm not sure it's about the Internet, more a natural curiousity I think some kids have. I think the fact this was many boys makes it slightly different, but due to the age range and natural curiousity kids have it's difficult to judge.

Unless you feel damaged by it, I'd move on. If you do feel damage, then seek some help to move forward.

Isn't it up to the OP to decide if she can shrug it off or not?
I was a child in the 70s and wouldn't describe this as routine and normal.

I would only consider it abuse if at the time you didn't want it to happen

But lots of children think that they are consenting at the time so I don't think that this is a good definition.

Personally, I think that the behaviour of the boys was abusive. Some of the younger ones may have been equally victims of the behaviour.

I also think it's worth discussing in counselling. You don't need to be traumatised to find that helpful.

But lots of children think that they are consenting at the time so I don't think that this is a good definition.

My feeling from the OP though is that she could say No and would have been listened to when she did.
That for me is the biggest difference with abuse. When you are abused, the perpetrator doesn't let say No.

Personally, I think that the behaviour of the boys was abusive. Some of the younger ones may have been equally victims of the behaviour.
Or they were experimenting because at 7~9yo, they weren't sexual being yet.... but they were curious about this sex that they were not allowed to see, it felt good to play with it etc...

As I said, at 14yo, I think the situation was very different.

Which might well be the reason why the OP is questioning herself. I mean at that age, I would have had no idea what a penis in erection looked like for example (let alone if the boy was 9yo and not developed yet)

I would only consider it abuse if at the time you didn't want it to happen

No - many children aren't sure what is happening, or do "consent" for want of a better word in order to be part of the game with bigger children, or (if they are from homes where they aren't valued) in order to feel loved and wanted. This does not negate the abuse.

Additionally, young children can also experience very pleasurable sexual feelings - this can further confuse them. Perhaps they don't want to do these things but it feels nice - so does that mean they DO want to do them? Children can't appropriately make decisions in regard to their sexual feelings - this is why they need to be protected from predatory/abusive behaviour.

Just because she didn't say no at that age doesn't mean what happened wasn't abusive.
The OP was very outnumbered by these boys it wasn't a one on one scenario she was also taken away when it took place.
I don't think this is normal experimentation personally.

Thank you, the previous two posters said that better than I did.

My feeling from the OP though is that she could say No and would have been listened to when she did.

This is so opposite to what the OP has actually described. As a pp said - can you imagine a self confident type who knows how to handle herself in that situation? No.

It really angers me that so many pp are minimising this. Sure it is up to the op to decide if she needs counselling or if she was traumatised, but that doesn't change the fact that it does at the very very least fall into the realms of very inappropriate behaviour.

A young girl, surrounded by several boys, some older, being 'told' and 'expected' to oblige is neither consensual or innocent. She had no power to say no simply due to peer pressure and her vulnerability in terms of age. Also she was the only one towards whom the behaviour was directed. Lots of boys looking at and kissing one girl's vagina repeatedly is not innocent is not experimentation and is not ok. The 'stripper' scene that a pp described is more child-like.

V well said.
This was contrived. Not spontaneous "play".

Oh and it makes me uncomfortable to say this but it is very likely that if the op hadn't moved away and had the same boys in her life that it would soon have turned into penetration. The repetition of behaviour, the secrecy and going beyond looking or even touching, into the realms of kissing are bad bad signs.
Op I hope you are ok reading all of this. I am really glad for you that you moved away and it stopped and also you had the strength to tell your brother to stop once you realised it was inappropriate. Btw I am not including him in my judgment of abusive as the learning difficulties you mentioned make it impossible for any of us to guess how competent he was.