Some men want to seem 'under the thumb'?

[Mom2Monkeys]

I have a theory, based on my experience with some boyfriends and DH, that some men choose strong women because it suits them to give the impression that they are under the thumb.

I am a strong, confident woman who has opinions. However, I'm not a loud or vocal person. What I really want is a man who is the same - a 50/50 relationship with someone who will tell me what he wants, stick up for himself and discuss things so that we will have interesting conversations and compromise together, etc.

However, I've noticed that in public my DH likes to occasionally play the role of 'being under the thumb' in front of his friends. I do not find this funny. He will give the impression that he is 'not allowed' to do certain things or that I'm the reason for him doing things or not doing things. It is complete nonsense.

To give a recent example: My DH plays football some weekends throughout the winter for a team that's far from where we live, so he's out most of Saturday. As we have a baby and a toddler, and he works long hours all week, I am with the children all week and I do find Saturdays hard. However, I understand that football is really important to him and I have my own musical hobbies that I attend, so it balances out.

Every year he umms and ahhhs over whether he wants to continue to play for the team. This year he has booked in lots of weekend activities and moans that he is 'not going to be able to play again' those weeks. So I told him to keep the whole of Oct/Nov/Dec/Jan free where possible. The things we've got booked in are HIS things that could be moved.

There has been one weekend when I said 'no' about him playing football - when he had worked until 10:30pm on two week-nights and I was exhausted. So he has now latched on to this, and is acting as if I am not keen on him playing football. I even said at the time 'make sure you play next weekend', and he claims he didn't hear me and has already cancelled it (even though we have nothing on).

Today I was annoyed when he said he was 'surprised' this morning when I was expecting him to play this weekend. I don't know why he'd be surprised as (except for one weekend) I have been very encouraging about him playing football, told him to move things so he can play and specifically said he should play this weekend. He has also started saying 'We agreed....' and 'We need to decide' about whether he plays football or not. As far as I'm concerned, 'We' have not agreed anything. Whether he plays football has nothing to do with me. He needs to decide for himself and I do not want to be blamed for whether he continues to play or misses matches, where it's been his decision.

He talks like this in front of our joint friends (not just about football), and I can see their disapproving looks. I have come to the conclusion that it suits him......

My husband did this. A few weeks ago we were at an event with a lot of his friends. He jokingly told them that he wasn't allowed to play computer games late at night anymore because I won't let him. That's blatantly untrue. There has been exactly two occasions over the last year where I asked him to stop playing very late at night (ie. 3am) because the circumstances made it unreasonable. But aside from those two occasions, he plays games whenever he wants - almost every night, and often very late at night.

It really annoyed me because I don't know his friends extremely well yet (new marriage), and I don't want them to think right out of the gate that I'm a bitch wife who takes away his toys, when it is simply not true. My dad used to do this too - make jokes implying my mother was a dictator who ruled the house with an iron fist, when actually she was very chill.

It's a subtle form of gas-lighting isn't it?

Well I won't stand for it. I called my husband out on this after the event, and he agreed not to make those kinds of jokes anymore. If he does it again, I call him out in front of his friends, until he gets the message.

It's very passive aggressive and has a lot to do with needing always to be the good guy in the eyes of others, I think. On some level, it pleases him to be seen as a victim

Absolutely agree.

He does definitely have a thing about needing to be seen as 'the good guy'. it comes up in different situations as well.

It's funny that we've also had another conversation where I've said he 'gas-lights'. Sometimes if I am upset with him about something and talk to him about it, he will respond nonchalently, knowing that a nonchalent response will make me mad. Then he will be all 'look how irrational and mad you're getting'.

The other day when he was talking about playing football to a friend, and making it sound as if he couldn't because of family commitments, I said "But I'm very keen for you to keep playing and you have not been been going. Why is that? Have you decided not to do it anymore?'

He looked very uncomfortable and said nothing. Obviously there is nothing he can say - because what I said was spot on.

This thread is brilliant. I think this is a very common thing, possibly for quite a range of underlying reasons, but I don't think I have ever seen or heard it mentioned anywhere before.

It is real food for thought.
It strikes me that it is the acceptable way of portraying relationships that absolutely does not work in the reverse. For example, if a woman were talking about not upsetting the husband or saying the husband wouldn't allow something then it would potentially be seen as much more sinister and a cause for concern. When a man says it, it may just get rye laughs.

A passive person, man or woman would find it easier to bame another for making decisions for them. Its easier that way, they can never be wrong or face criticism for mistakes.
They are, in effect living a perpetual childhood.

I agree that it's related to gaslighting. As well as the self-martyring (in itself a subtle form of gaslighting), my H gaslights in more obvious ways. Both indicate that he has a very flexible sense of truth/reality.

And there was me thinking I was the only one ...!!! DH does the exact same thing, means he never has to take responsibility for a single thing

Wow this is really common.

My DH used to do it. I was desperate for him to go fuck off out and invest time in an interest because his work was all he did other than being with us at home) and I now see it's because he loved his work and regarded it as much of a hobby as a job).

I repeatedly told him I felt guilty wanting my own time for my hobby if he didn't have one and he'd tell me he didn't have time because of the hours he worked.

Since then his work has become regarded by him as his work, and he now has a hobby. As a result my life is happier because I embrace my hobby without guilt and he finally has the balls to own his own feelings.

Any bloke that does this (usually in an exaggerated 'jokey' way) I'd assume doesn't really understand equality and compromise in relationships - if they aren't getting their own way all the time they think they're under the thumb and henpecked.

It is related to gaslighting, I also agree. I feel angry as it reminds me of other behaviours I feel are related, in my case anyway. If ever I didn't want to do something (with ex) he would engineer it so that I was in a situation where I was forced into it to avoid being made out to be 'difficult'. For instance, after it had been agreed he would go somewhere without me, he would ask me again in front of a group of people so I couldn't get out of it. I was saying no because of anxiety issues so it was very difficult for me to then be forced into it or face 'proving' what a cow I was. And of course it continues now because of dc.

I look back now and although my ex never did this 'under the thumb' thing, he did the good guy martyr very very well and it was so draining.
My daughter has this personality. I am trying to help her but I feel now she is a teen it's ingrained. It's not worth asking anything of her because she will escalate the gaslighting into something off the scale, same for whenever she feels guilty about something it's almost like a game of 'hot potato' SHIT QUICK, WHO WILL CATCH THIS HORRIBLE GUILTY FEELING I DONT WANT IT. Oh here you go mum (and I think she saw her dad do this to me all the time.
It allows them to be bloody unreasonable about things yet blame you for being the unreasonable one. The scary thing is the more you talk it through the worse it gets. I just call it out for what it is - you feel bad about X, it's nothing to do with me so I do not feel bad'

Basically refuse to hold the hot potato!

Great thread OP glad you started it. Agree with pp's.

I would call him out firmly and publically every time he does it.

He will look quite the twat (which he is)

My ex refused to make any decisions ever. To the point where I HAD to make decisions or we would have never done anything. I would beg him to say what he wanted and he would shrug and say it was up to me. I chose where we lived, sorted him out a job, chose where we went out all decisions were mine which was utterly exhausting and not what I wanted at all but still any attempt at conversations were met with a shrug and a 'I dunno'.
Eventually he left me out of the blue because I was 'bossy and controlling'. I actually couldn't believe what I was hearing and started to doubt everything about myself, went into a deep crisis of character and completely broke down. Well that was until I found out he had been shagging someone else behind my back and he was too much of a coward to tell me that was why he was leaving so had used that as an excuse.

Like matchstickbox my DH does this with his mother particularly. Especially if I arrange something that I hope is nice like we had afternoon tea, and we've taken her to the theatre, she'll pull me aside afterwards and ask if I'll 'let' her have him round on his own to do some jobs next weekend. I wonder what he says to her behind my back - there is no let, within reason he can see her as much as he likes. It's that he can't own his decisions, and avoids conflict and emotional honesty.

I've raised it with him, he says nothing.

Interestingly I think this behaviour even appears in the dating stage. I have the usual "30 something independent woman girl about town" interests of travelling/yoga/coffee out/arts and culture and I genuinely enjoy it.

What's weird is when I get some guy I'm dating ( and sadly this isn't uncommon) who becomes obsessed with the idea that I'm actually some "her indoors" type who is desperate to constrain his freedom

( so I'll do the "fancy a night out seeing X play?" and he'll turn up and make out like it is this incredible social demand I've forced him into ) Its incredibly passive aggressive and insulting. I also think it's actually really controlling - I get the impression that deep down the men who do this really resent independent women and/or have mother issues.

Yes ballot. It's mysoginistic and plays to that naggy stereotype. As I said up thread it's very disrespectful.

Aye, it's like the guys KNOW the women they're pulling this gaslighting shit in are actually fairly calm independent types and resent it

(eg they're pretty aware that if I invite them out and they say "not my thing" I'll text back and go "no worries see you soon" and go solo or with a friend.

But they don't like facing that they are not the emotional centre of my universe. So they turn up and make out like " I only turned up because you'd throw and tantrum if I didn't")

It's like they are the needy whiny ones, but they'd rather project all these emotions onto a woman?

Maxwellthecat - Oh God that rings true for us too. I can never get a decision or opinion out of him. It's as if he doesn't have any. If I ask what he wants to do he says 'What do you want to do?'. It frustrates me because I really want him to WANT something or KNOW what he wants. I feel like I do all of the thinking and organising in the relationship. He waits for me to tell him what to do or carries out my requests so literally, without using common sense that he does something stupid that makes no sense. His mother was controlling and I think she just organised his life for him. As a result, he can't think for himself.

ElizaDoLittle - He also avoids conflict and emotional honesty. I've caught him out in pointless white lies, because he says what he thinks I want to hear, not what he's actually thinking/doing. It makes me worry about honesty. Sometimes I feel like I'm with an empty, distant person and I can't quite reach who he is. I worry he might lie to me about big things and keep information quiet (he does this with his mother). But on the other hand he seems so nice and caring, so i hope not.

My dh uses me as an excuse not to do things he doesn't want to do.
Now all his friends and family think I'm controlling

We go out with a mixed group of friends where some of the men and women do this nonsense dh tries it i just laugh in his face its ridiculous what is about ?

Interesting what you say, ballottheplebs, about this kind of attitude manifesting at the dating stage.

On the upside, I suppose it's a way of working out early on that you've got a twat on your hands so you can bin him off quickly.