Advice needed - I think this is the end of my marriage..... (long, sorry)

[OrlandoTheMarmaladeCat]

I am a regular on here but have changed my name for this thread...

DH and I have been married for nearly 19 years, and have two children aged 10 and 8. DH and I have had a pretty good relationship over the years although I have always loathed his temper. (He has never hit me or the kids so that's not an issue). Until about 3.5 yrs ago, I was DH's "rock" (in his words) - I worked full-time in a very senior role, earned a damn good salary, paid for almost everything, enabling DH to go part-time and become self-employed.
And then it all came tumbling down. I had a nervous breakdown - brought on by too many years of burning the candle at both ends, an extremely stressful job, missing my children, my mother's advanced breast cancer, and various other things. About 5 months later, in the depths of severe depression, I found that I had breast cancer and had a lump removed. In the meantime, DH became very close to one of our close friends, culminating in me finding them kissing. They swore that nothing else had happened and we never really saw her again. I ended up being hospitalised for several weeks (because of the depression), and in the midst of all this, DH rings me up to tell me that I've "changed so much, [he's] not really sure [he] loves me anymore".
So after bl**dy months of my individual therapy, we go to Relate. The message seems to be we need to communicate more, cuddle more and have more sex. We stop going to Relate because DH doesn't like the therapist. We try a private counsellor but DH decides he can't do anymore talking (talking, particularly about his emotions, is not his strong point). We struggle on. My depression comes and goes. My medication gets increased. Sex, and the low frequency of it, remains an issue (ie DH wants more and I'm not attracted to him)
And gradually I become better - I start to feel like I'm human again. I begin to like myself for the first time in years. I start to enjoy things again. I pick up a paintbrush for the first time in years and realise how much I've missed it.
I've realised, and DH agrees (I think) that I cannot work again, certainly not in a pressured job. (I have tried and my depression returned with a vengeance). We have very little money. But I'm happy with that. DH, on the other hand, is having to work much harder than he used to and now has all the bread-winning responsibility on his shoulders. His "rock" is now a little bit fragile, and not quite the all-conquering superwoman he married.
The thing is (and if you've got this far, I congratulate you) I don't think I love him anymore. I mean, what is love anyway? He can barely say anything kind towards me, can barely do anything for me without me asking for it, he doesn't much like talking and often just says he's tired and goes to bed early. And yet when I want to go to bed early, he complains about us living like an old married couple. I don't 'fancy' him. I enjoy sex when it happens with him, but I'm happy to go without. I look at him and wonder why I'm still with him.
Except I know the answer (or I think I know). I don't want to upset the kids. I love our house (and we'd have to sell it if we split). I keep thinking, we'll get through this, we'll muddle on and somehow it'll be alright, we've got through so much already. But it's just the same old, same old. I want someone who can put strong, loving and dependable arms around me, who can support me (yes, both emotionally AND financially), who will understand depression or at least believe that it's not my fault I've had depression.
I've started standing up for myself much more now, and I've come to see that his moods bring me down. I don't want to be down. I want to feel happy. But he accuses me of wanting to live in la-la land, and that I'm just naive. I'm well, I'm thriving but we just seem to be growing apart.
Any ideas?

Now I know I'm a bit rocky, I've just burst into tears on reading your post!! You see, all it takes is someone being nice to me and I crumble

The thing is that I'm not sure I could handle his anger, because he's bound to be angry. I'll get the 'don't you know how busy I am at the moment, how do you expect me to cope with the kids/dogs/work etc, you're so selfish, it's all about me me me' argument from him. I guess I could respond by saying that one of us needs to go so who will it be?

Thanks for your help Carmenere, sometimes I just can't see the wood for the trees.

orlando - the only thing that I would say is that living with a depressive is hell. DH suffered on and off with severe depression for years and it was very very hard. I've been the main breadwinner, the main money manager, the main childcarer and chief cook and bottle washer for years partly due to the fact that depression scuppered my DH's career and his life generally for a while. And although I love him I have resented him like mad. Can't help it but as time has gone by things have improved. I've also been depressed so I do know that it isn't exactly a barrel of laughs on the other side either . I can see that some of the things he has done are awful - the kissing etc - but I really would give it some more time. Unless you are 100% sure that you are no longer depressed I wouldn't make any huge decisions now.

Time away would help you get some perspective if you can manage it.

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Orlando I don't know if I have anything useful to say but I do think that you are doing fantastically, well done for getting so much better...from your OP I can see a huge rollercoaster has happened in your marriage - you and your DH have almost completely swapped roles from you being the rock, to him being the 'strong' one....he obviously isn't enjoying that role and he obviously would like you to be stronger again...however I feel given time things could possibly move once more on that rollercoaster, as you get stronger and more well, you will be able to take a stronger role in the relationship again.

Don't expect to be his rock though, that's not healthy for anyone.

But equally I don't think you can expect someone to look after you financially and emotionally. It probably happens for some people, great, but in most relationships you don't get all you want from one person....my DH supports me emotionally but he is never going to be the breadwinner and I accept that. We downsized to a small two bed terrace because I accept this and I don't want to be resenting him for it.

The other thing I wanted to say is that there is never a good age to experience parental separation but your kids are at what I think is a really bad age to experience this It's worth exploring all avenues and having a genuinely open mind about it.

To be honest I think your DH needs start to realise that depression is an illness and not something you planed, or could have avoided! How can you feel attracted to him and want sex if he kisses someone behind your back, comments on your weight and makes you feel like you're in some way 'lucky' to have him as a husband and earining the money.

Your relationship is a partnership and at different times in your life you'll both contribute to that partnership in different ways, whether that be money, time, looking after the children, whatever. You earned a very big salary for a long time and enabled him to go part time and become self employed. Now things are the other way round, he should have no hesitation in helping you fulfil your dreams. None at all!

You sound like despite the fact you know you'll never work in a high powered stressful job again you have wonderful ambitions based on the things you truly love (children and art) and you are actually taking steps to do somehthing about that. That's fantastic and I really admire you for that.

I fully understand the difficulties of being with someone who doesn't want to talk about their emotions or feelings and it's so frustrating!

Perhaps you could just do the talking for him from this point on in order to actually get somewhere and help you make some decisions.... explain how you feel, how he makes you feel, what you need from him, your ambitions and dreams, and above all, all the wonderful things you bring to your relationship and family that have nothing to do with money.

Then maybe take some time to yourself to decide if the things you love about him and the enjoyment you get from your children/hobbies/travel etc is worth trying to rebuild the relationship for. And FWIW I always think it's worth giving a marriage everything you've got before giving up (providing it doesn't make you ill of course).
And maybe after one last try, if you do decide you deserve more (which you do!) then you can walk away in the knowledge that you truly did your very best.

(And maybe by that time you will have the career you want teaching art and could afford your house, or a very similar one, on your own.)

Stay strong. You sound like a fantastic mum and a very strong woman.

Just tell him that it is a preventative measure, that you need to get away for a few days to sort your thoughts out. xx

No Man WANTS to leave their house that theyre paying for etc etc but it comes to a point when he has no option . My Ex went to stay at a single friends and then once that happened that really was that - no going back .
I really didnt want to leave my "Married" home - I'd imagined being married all my life and living there when I was old and grey, it hurt so much when that house was sold and I didnt want to move to my "little" house - But ....I met a lovely man, totally opposite to my Ex and a few years on we bought a lovely house together and now - Im expecting his baby. It took a lot of courage to leave the marriage after 10 yrs, but I think there comes a point when you feel "this is it" and I NEVER expected my life to turn out the way it has. Six years on, my Ex still blames me for everything that goes wrong - but now I know Im well out of it.

Thank you.

Sunnysideup - you've given me food for thought there, about the rollercoaster bit particularly.

The thing is I want to downsize, I want to reduce our financial burdens - sell the camper, sell the motorbikes, sell whatever (pref not the house, but I would do if needs be. It's only a tiny cottage, but it is detached and we have had it for 12+ yrs so there is equity in it). But DH doesn't want to sell these things. To me it seems he would rather keep the pressures up and then blame me - blame me for my depression, blame me for managing money badly so when I was earnings loads I wasn't saving it, I was spending it - and keep me feeling guilty. That's the way it seems to me anyway.

So I feel a lot of pressure on me to share the financial burden - I do what I can, a bit of ironing here and there, babysitting when I can, selling my old clothes on Ebay, shopping carefully. But my fear of asking him for money has led to me building up a whopping overdraft and using my credit card more than I should . I'm slowly slowly getting it down. And I guess that I am embarrassed to even think of wanting someone who will look after me financially (it sounds soooo cold hearted).

And another impossible question, how do you know when you've given it enough time? When do you say 'right that's it'? I've even wanted him to go ahead and have that affair so that it would give me the cast iron excuse to end it, rather than leaving me with the possibility that I ended it and it was the wrong decision....

You know - or I knew - when I'd kept trying and he wouldnt change and i got strong and thought "Im still fairly young with all my life ahead of me - do I really want this for the rest of my life?" and I realised i didnt and eventually took tiny steps to move on - If you look at the whole picture of what you have to go through its too depressing, but bit by bit you work your way through the Solicitors, the new mortgage, the finances etc etc

I'm so sorry OTMC. I went through something similar a couple of years ago. Fell in to a deep depression. My husband tried to stand by me but eventually gave up and just avoided me for months on end. Slowly I got myself out of it - with the help of some very close friends - and when I felt good and on top of things I realised that something was missing. I didn't love my husband anymore: We tried relate etc, but nothing seemed to work. I left him. 6 months later I suddenly realised my mistake - I wasn't ver him at all and I wasn't well either. I'd just sort of gone through an odd 'up' after the down. Luckily we managed to sort through everything and are together now - and strong - but it took a lot of work. People asked me over and over again at the time if I was still depressed and I was positive I was fine. Hindsight is a wonderful thing!
Not making any judgements on your situation as your DH has definitely been an a*se, but don't do anything hasty. A break is great for clearing the head and getting a new perspective. Good luck

Orlando, in my experience there's a gap between feeling/knowing you would all be happier apart, and actually leaving. It's not a logical thing, you will spend ages doing 'should I what if I'm scared' etc etc, and more ages saying 'why on earth am I still here'.

If it's going to happen then eventually a tiny little last straw will drift onto the heap, and you will take the leap. It may be a big row, it may just be that you wake up one day feeling slightly different. But no amount of rationalising will present you with the 'right' answer or a clear direction or a least damaging moment (there is no good moment for leaving your marriage).

I found one particular book 'too good to go too bad to stay' very helpful on a rational level, and it very clearly pointed the way forwards, confirming everything I thought and knew in my heart - but it was still 18 months before I actually made a move.

Good luck

Orlando sorry, I'd forgotten about the kissing scenario in thinking too much on the depression one.

Do you think you can support yourself and your kids? If so go.

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I agree with everything that have been said here, this thread is FULL of wise advice, and probably mine is going to be the first one that is not but... anyways.

Many years ago, I was dithering about the effects of a horrible relationship when a friend gave me the best piece of advice I have had: "you have to leave, but do that when the time is more convenient for you".

He was right, if I had left there and there as the circumstances asked for, I wouldn't have been able to follow the path that I so carefully planned for myself, so... I decided that it was important to keep the status quo and to ignore the hell that house was at the point until I was ready to leave. I'm glad I did, because that allowed me to get strong enough to do the things just as I wanted and when I was ready I left.

It may seem cold blooded but you have supported him inmensely over the past, you have the right to get back a bit of what you did not only in economical terms or the earnings of selling a house, even if that is just to be able to get on with your interests for a while without worrying too much about the money. And then, once that you are fully independant, when you don't have to rely on him for more emotional and economic support, re evaluate the situation and take a decission.

It may be the case that by then you are again the strong woman he fell in love with, it may be that by then you are so happy with what you do that you can see him under a different light (although I accept that that could be for worse too!). But whatever you decide, you will be ready to continue in any way you decide, and I'm sure the transition would be "smother" that way.

Obviously, it's a bit of a hell while you are at it but from your particular circumstances as described in your first post, it doesn't seem unbearable. IME, the amount of hapiness I was getting from my interest- turned-into-a succesful-career, was enough for all those bad moments to fade in the background. And at the end of the day, when I finally left, I did it in very friendly terms.

HTH

Thank you for some helpful comments...

Dior - I'm sorry that we seem to be going through the same stuff! It's not nice is it...

Budgie - you're right, I'm looking for the right answer but there isn't one. Thanks for pointing me to the book, I'll have a quiet read and see if that helps.

MT - I can't support me and the kids at the mo - I'm only on incapacity benefit. (I've got a great pension pot but that doesn't kick in for another 22 years!!!

Chandra - on the contrary, your advice is helpful. It's kind of along the lines I was thinking anyway I think if DH doesn't take the initiative to leave for a while to give us some space, then I'll just have to grit my teeth and carry on as you say, waiting for the right time for me.

Thanks everyone for your support. You have no idea how helpful you all are. I'm feeling pretty ropey today, mainly because I've not slept much for a few nights now, but I'm going to take a sleeping pill or two tonight, and go to bed early! Tomorrow is another day as they say and I might well feel a little stronger then.

Well, things have moved on a little now...

I won't bore you with the details but I have now told DH I want us to separate with a view to giving ourselves some space to consider our options. He has said he'll go to Relate although I'm not optimistic based on previous experience! (We went but he came out still convinced that he was right and they (and me) were all wrong)

I have a number of questions which I hope I can get some advice on...

1. We're owner occupiers, what rights to I have to stay in the house with the kids? Or is it likely that we would have to sell and split the equity?
2. How and when do we tell the kids? It's likely that I'll take them with me to stay at my parents next weekend as DH is refusing the leave the house.
3. If we're staying at my parents, does DH have to pay me/my parents anything towards the kids' upkeep?
4. Are the CAB any good on this or should I see my solicitor?

I'm sure there'll be others along the way....

It's good that you don't mind being poor! I seperated from long-term partner two years ago and it is a constant financial struggle not to mention an emotional one. There are no right answers but i do agree that waiting for the right moment can be a brilliant plan. As a dependant partner (we were never married) i held none of the cards, my ex has been more reasonable than some but only cause he felt guilty about his really long affair! I know what it means to go to any lengths to avoid an x-rated bedroom scenrio, my friends and i have always joked about the headache that starts around 4pm for added authenticity. I am still completely dependant on my ex (three sons; 8,6 and 3) so in many ways it still feels like we're together there is just the same amount of continual compromise and arguing. thankfully i also have a new bf with whom the sex is fantastic (well until a week ago when i discovered i'm up the duff whilst my mirena coil is in place- but that's another story!!) If you hate everything he says, does, the way he butters bread not to mention the socks all over the floor- and you can see no redeeming features at all ever then i would still suggest you swallow hard and wait till you're in a strong enough position to take control of your own life without the humiliating experience of still being totally dependant on him whilst living apart- HE WILL MAKE YOU SUFFER!!! having said this my two closest friends would say fuck him, any amount of poverty is better than a life in purgatory, and so many women break free and fly so high without the constraints of their relationship. As far as your children are concerned i say happy mummy happy babies! This hasn't helped but good luck!

Thanks Domestictechnician!

Any other advice anyone?

I can;t help with most of your questions but I gather CAB can refer ONE of the couple (so get in first) to their family law people and I understand they are good.

Courts will err on the side of leaving the children in their home until 18 if at all possible whilst accepting that the otehr partner needs to live smewhere. So they may get more income in the split to allow them to rent or if the hosue is consider bigger than necessary you would be given a bigger porion out of any equity to bu a home suitable for the children.

Obviously a solicitor would be able to advise you better.

Thanks NurseyJo, esp your point about contacting a solicitor first.

I've got a very good solicitor (well he's always been brilliant about other stuff like wills so presumably will be able to help). I'll try and see him in the week.

Interestingly, DH and I had a long talk this morning and he has admitted that he does have some issues (blimey, it's only taken 19 years and a threat of divorce to get that out of him). He says he's prepared to go to therapy etc and to work it all out.

The thing is - and this is when I feel an absolute cow - I'm not sure will work or that he really will. I want to carry on getting the separation in place because otherwise it means carrying on living with him, and carrying on with the opportunities for him to have a go at me etc. Is that awful?

I'm sorry you are going through such a difficult time Orlando.

I just wanted to say how full of good advice this thread is. I especially like the bit about leaving when it's convenient for you.
There's absolutely no point in jumping from the frying pan straight into the fire if there's no immediate need. And, for sure, the grass is not always greener on the other side.

You have been through so much in recent months which, in itself will have brought about some major changes in yourself and your way of thinking. I would say that because of all that's happened, it's natural that you and your husband would have lost your way a little, neither of you can go through everything you have and come out of it exactly the same people you were before. Whether you stay together and try and find that common place again really depends on if you can remember why you fell in love with each other in the first place and build on it from there.

When i read your thread it gave me a nice feeling because, despite the problems you have had and the ones you are now having with your husband, you do seem to have found a happy medium, you seem happy with the life you have now made for yourself. If you do decide to split from your husband all that may change due to the pressures you will be under as a single parent. I would hate to think you were just going to be swapping one problem for a hundred others!!!

As i see it, you have your life well sorted, and good on ya!
I would say its your husband who now has the problem with it and as hard as it sounds, he is the one who is going to have to deal with it, work on his own insecurities, if he wants the relationship to work.

Wishing you much luck and happiness

Thanks for your help girls. TBH, I am worrying constantly about whether I'm jumping from the frying pan into the fire. But I still feel like I have a right to live without being constantly criticised, or made to feel guilty for having depression, or being made to feel grateful that he has stuck with me etc etc.

Why can't I just be me, without being brought down all the time?

It can't be right for him to give me verbal abuse? And what lesson is that teaching the children as well?

Would I really feel so down when he's gone?

I don't know the answers. But I'm feeling strong at the moment that separation is the only way forward for the time being. He's adamant that he's got nowhere to go, although has agreed to give one friend a call. I'm not going anywhere until I've seen my solicitor. And then we'll start looking forward - to therapy for him, to a 'safe' life for me.

You are perfectly right. You do have a right to live without all of those things, you do have a right to be happy.

I can say from experience that, leaving such a situation doesn't always make all of those things better.
The verbal abuse doesn't always stop, as doesn't the critism or the guilt you feel.
Sometimes, when one bad feeling stops another one just pops up to take it's place.

I'm, not trying to advise you wht to do or preach my sermon i have been in a situation very similar to yours, leaving gave me some clarity but it didn't solve the problems.

Take good care