Men not wanting children but partner does

[SuperFlyHigh]

I wanted to ask a question on behalf of 2 close friends of mine who don't know each other.

S has lived with her boyfriend for past 4-5 years, he has a 10 year old son and they're engaged. She has always wanted children but he has said no. She's now 44 and he would not even consider her adopting. She owns her own flat and runs her own business.

T has been with her boyfriend for a year and they moved in together 6 months ago. Again, she would like children but he says no. She will be 40 this December. She owns her own flat which is rented out.

They both seemed to think it was too late to meet someone else (maybe in S' case) to have children with. So are sticking with the relationship for now childless.

I myself am dating but childless and happy to be so.

I just do not get sometimes why some men are so belligerent about not having children when their partner would like them.

I can understand where both men are coming from, as they will be in their forties. Having a child at this age means they will be looking at trying to find uni fees for any child born now while they themselves will be in their sixties, instead of preparing themselves financially for their retirements.

Even the business woman would have to stop work or run it from home (depending on business type), or pay for a nanny so financial problems may arise there as well.

Anyone thinking of entering a long term relationship should definitely be discussing finances, children, sahp, and household duties before a permanent commitment. Looking at other threads perhaps the use/misuse of mobile phone and electronic games as well?

Ozzie totally agreed re the ages of the men and what it would mean for them.

I'm not 100% sure and will ask the women when I see them next (if it comes up!) when they asked their DP about the children issue.

You do get lots of women my age though who don't know when to bring up the subject of children or think that by bringing it up early it will scare the man off. I've been told by men that some women on dating sites who are older immediately list 'having children' as being high up on their list of priorities which can scare some men off.

differentnameforthis

"I should add my friend was a few years older than her dh and was also the higher wage earner. Why does that matter? She tricked her husband into having a child, that's horrible."

The husband bears some of the responsibility there although she does also of course. He did not sort out contraception for himself. He must have had some idea that unprotected sex might result in pregnancy.

What is wrong is to either string your partner along pretending to be ambivalent but all the time knowing it will be a cold day in hell before you commit to parenthood, when you know you don't and have never wanted children. It is also utterly wrong to pretend to be taking contraception and deliberately fall pregnant to someone who does not want children (or conversely, to sabotage their birth control in some way if it is the female partner who doesn't want children - actually that latter one is also a physical assault, forcing someone into a pregnancy they don't want).

What is perfectly okay is to be honest about not wanting children (or more children) - this may lead to the relationship breaking up (which is sad, but the best outcome) or limping along while the other partner tries to delude themselves that they can adapt to a situation which is making them desperately unhappy (even sadder).

The "but they have a child and they claim to love their child so they ought to be open to having more" argument is complete nonsense. It is fine to say "I love my child very much, I would not want to be without them, but the sacrifices of time, freedom and sleep in the early years are so great that I don't want to do it again."

He must have had some idea that unprotected sex might result in pregnancy. Unless she was on the pill, and stopped without his knowledge. There was a trust in her that she would continue to take care of that, that trust was broken.

In a LTR if she is on the pill, and he understands that to be there agreement, I don't think he gets to be partly responsible when she tricks him. It certainly wouldn't work that way if he was making holes in condoms in order to trick her...

*their

Well, we don't know that she was telling her husband that she was on the contraceptive pill. If she was telling him that she was on the pill and deliberately stopped taking it without telling him, then she is at fault completely of course. If not, then some of the responsibility is his.

Surely before you move in with someone and start a long term relationship you check whether they want kids? Not doing so has played out badly for these women. "Do you want kids one day" is not an unreasonable question. In one of the cases you mention the dp said he didn't want more kids. Your friend wrongly assumed he would change his mind.
These women are either breathtakingly naive or thick as planks.

As a childfree man, I have always been totally up front about this on day one. Not that I go on many dates - haven't been on one in five years, because finding childfree women even with online dating is like needle in the proverbial haystack.

What boils my piss more than anything are women who say shit like "but if you REALLY loved me/her, you'd agree to have children". Because if a man said to a woman "if you REALLY loved me/him, you'd agree not to have children" would quite rightly be handed his arse on a plate.

It doesn't work like that. We're not talking about "shall we go to Italy" or "shall we buy that car" where compromise is easily reached. We're talking living breathing children who have the right to be born into relationships where both parents ACTIVELY really, really, really, really want to be parents. Even ambivalence is, in my opinion, not right. I know people who do the "I don't really want kids, but if my partner wants them I'll have them" and I think that is equally poor.

i current;y have a female friend who has always refused to date a guy who'd been married before, who already had kids and had plenty of time for her because she was ambivalent but would have kids if a partner did. If she was to have kids, she wanted to share the experience for the first time. Although when her longest ever relationship broke up she was devastated because she felt it meant she would never have children. She is now dating a recently separated guy with three kids, is not happy, and is telling people that she has never wanted kids anyway. Rewriting history.

Kids is the SINGLE biggest decision we should ever make and I know people who give more thought to choosing a carpet than deciding whether to have kids or not, how many to have and I still know people who have gotten married without ever discussing it. Anyone who gets to a remotely serious stage with someone they are dating should bring up the kids question and bail out immediately if the answer is not the one they want. It's wasting other person's time, especially if they think the other person will change their mind because they will fall in love with them so much.

Aren't you all forgetting that before they were married he indicated that he wanted children at some point. To then turn round and say no you could argue he was the one doing the tricking.

I'm not sure it is tricking someone to say that you might want children in the future and then decide no nearer the time. You said that he was 'open to the idea in a few years time'. That is not a definite YES. That's I'll think about it nearer the time. He thought about it nearer the time and concluded no.

Not sure that there's any trickery on his part there.

Sorry, Olivers but people - women as well as men - can change their mind over time. I agree, if he was definitely saying that to string her along, that's not on at all. But unless you know he was lying initially, he may simply have changed his mind, which is not trickery at all.

I know people who have been perfectly open and saying that they wanted children at some point to find a few years down the road they had changed their mind because their position was not financially great, health issues had cropped up, their relationship had been a bit rocky, they had spent time with other people's children and decided it really wasn't for them. All of that is perfectly reasonable.

If a woman values having a child above all things, they are perfectly at liberty to go and have one via sperm donor rather than trust that "love is enough".

Hang on, if a couple are in a LTR, and it's been a case of the woman being on the pill/implant/coil, then if she ever decides to come off it, there needs to be a discussion about contraception. Even if it just her saying "I'm no longer on contraception, so if you wish to preven pregnancy, it is up to you to do something about it". At least then they are are both on the same page.

Anything else is underhand and manipulation.

So what is the point of discussing anything if when the time comes someone just says I changed my mind.

So saying everyone needs to discuss this before getting married and having all the discussions about finding out if a potential partner is thinking about children is worthless if they then say no when the time comes.

Saying you want children at some point is not saying, I don't know if I want children or I might want children.
Maybe I am not understanding exactly the words but "I want children at some point" means I want children in a few years time.

Olivers You have the discussion to see if you are on the same page AT THAT TIME and with your IDEAS for the future. Unfortunately there will be some who lie. But life throws curveballs at us. We are different people at 35 than we were at 28 and it would be foolish to automatically assume no one will ever change their mind about anything years down the road after whatever life has thrown at us. You go into something as open and honest as you can be. A lot of people's dreams and ideas won't change, but many will and it doesn't make them a wanker if that's what happens.

I can say "next year I want to retrain as a counsellor". And mean it. But in twelve months time I might have changed my mind because I've had an experience which has made me rethink it. Doesn't mean I lied when I first said it.

Olivers Or to put it another way, a couple get together at 27, say they want marriage, and to live in a foreign country by the time they are 35. At 34, the woman says she no longer wants to live abroad. Maybe her parents aren't well now. Maybe she's found herself in a really good job.

Their discussion at 27 was, in your view, worthless, because she says no when the time comes. The man's choice is to either stay because he loves her, or leave because he still loves her but it is a dream he has to fulfil.

She didn't lie. She changed her mind due to life circumstances. But they had eight good years together at least. He could feel just as hacked off as a woman whose man changed his mind about having children. It doesn't make either of them a bad person.

Can you really not see that sometimes, life just HAPPENS?

Your friends can't want children that much if they stay with their DPs.

I have a close family member who made exactly this choice at 40, left the LTR, met someone else and had a baby at 43. She would have visited the sperm bank if she hadn't met anyone.

She had waited years for her DP to change his mind, despite him being very very clear about not wanting DC.

The exDP married someone else a couple of years later who also didn't want children.

Ten years on, everyone is happy, no one is resentful and they all hang out together with old friends sometimes.

oliversmum At the point where you then say 'This is the time I want children' and they say no, you have to make the decision to leave or put up with it. It is up to the person who wants the children to decide how long they are prepared to wait for someone to decide they want children. At some time they need to bite the bullet and go rather than be strung along or waiting for a decision. Nothing is more guaranteed to kill love stone dead.

Sorry OP, I still don't get the point of this thread. In the OP you say that it's on "behalf" of your friends. So do they know about it? Are you planning on relaying the nuggets of MN wisdom back to them?

And no, of course you have not touched a nerve

squishee - ooh no they don't know about this thread god help me if they found out but I found it an interesting conundrum and wanted to get some insight into it... I think I will 'drop into conversation' if they ask what MN says - they probably know this already, they're not daft.

I don't think either of them is planning to fall pregnant accidentally though.

RunRabbit your close relative was very lucky to fall pregnant and meet someone after 40!

I've had discussions with various friends over the years who either wanted children via freezing eggs/sperm donors - one woman eventually had a huge fibroid and had to have her womb removed - she could use a surrogate but huge costs etc.

The other friend is trying to start her business in UK (she's foreign), on top of sorting out visas etc..., she has also found out she's probably got a heart condition.

The harsh reality of being a single mum is very hard.

a case story for you. close male friend, single dad, 3 kids (girls), adamant he didn't want more kids - met a younger woman in her early 20s (he's early 40s) and they either had the discussion or it was a happy accident - don't know which. Anyway he has a baby son now (1 year old) and couldn't be happier. She's returned to work. It's cemented their family even more now. He really is absolutely thrilled with his son though unsure if they will have more. his GF is a great stepmum to their girls though (they have a feckless mum, drug and alcohol abuse, unreliable, left when youngest was 18 months and eldest was 6 or 7).

None of this is about children. It is all about personal responsibility IMO.

If you are still childless and just entering a new relationship and want children you have to be rational and also no that it is not hugely likely to happen at all for a variety of reasons from fertility to the life stage of the people you will be dating.

If anyone feels something is important to them and lies to their partner about it in order to 'keep'/'impress' them then they are a selfish controlling manipulative twat pretty crap partner. If you fail to communicate something very important I can't see that it could be accidental really more delusional or selfish.

Be a responsible person in relationships, you'll have a better time (and so will everyone else).

In these specific situations the women need to understand that it is not that likely they are going to meet someone new who wants to try at that age and that they shouldn't expect them to change their minds. Being with someone who doesn't want children means accepting that you will not have children with that person.

*still childless at 40

Just because there have been a few examples of it having a couple having an "accident" having a happy ending, does not mean it is the norm.

I am the child of an "accident" and it could not have been made clearer to me that my father had not wanted me, and that he raised me because That was his duty, and I was his responsibility.

It is not fun growing up like that.

Only have children if you definitely want to be a parent
If 2 people don't agree on this issue then they don't have a good basis for a partnership