Semi-detached husband

[MabelAllan]

Hi all - I need some advice and a fresh perspective. I feel really stuck right now, and don't know either how to proceed, or even whether my anger and resentment is justified, and whether I should just get over myself.

My DH and I have been together for 8 years; we have 3 small children, aged 4, 2 and 2. He's always been a bit slapdash in the way he goes about domestic responsibilities, but over the last 14 months he's just disappeared into the clouds and is driving me up the wall.

We moved house a year ago, from a place and house that I adored, to somewhere 4 hours north where I don't know anyone, to be closer to his work and his family. I gave up my job to facilitate the move (his job is more secure) and went freelance. Despite the fact that the move was entirely in his interest, since it's been on the cards, he's just shrugged off more and more responsibility. He did literally nothing to assist with the legal or practical aspects of the move, apart from one contribution, which was to send a spare set of our house keys to some friends that were house-sitting for us - he sent the wrong keys. Once we moved, we had to do 6 months of building and renovating work, and again, he did literally nothing in terms of organising it, even answering builders' questions with 'I have no idea what's going on, tbh!'; and any decorating work he did, he fucked up so badly that I had to redo it.

In our previous existence, we used to split responsibility for paying bills etc, but here I've ended up doing all of them and managing all our finances. I feel like his housekeeper, to be honest. But he DOES do 50% of the childcare, 50% of the laundry, cooks more than I do, and does just a little less than 50% of the cleaning. It's the 'domestic management' that he doesn't do: if I delegate a job to him, he'll do it eventually, but he won't realise for himself what needs doing (ie. if another parent gives him a birthday party invitation for our eldest, it won't occur to him that she'll need to bring a present. I'll need to ask him to get something, or buy it myself). It's so tiring having to keep on top of everything: I constantly have a mental 'to do' list setting off alarms in my head.

I've talked to him twice about this, telling him that I feel exploited; and he's promised to change. But he's made no changes at all. We have an au pair coming out to us next week, and again, he's done nothing in terms of thinking about what preparations need to be made; whereas I've spent every evening for the last 3 weeks getting her room ready; contacting language schools; buying a bike for her etc etc.

What actually hurts me more, is that he seems to have stopped paying any attention to me or my life, along with detaching from how the family runs. I manage the social side of our life, as well as its practical side - I've been basically the only one to make new friends here, to organise playdates for the children, and to organise nights out for me and DH. I've said to him that I want him to take more responsibility for our relationship - so he organised a night out, but forgot it was the weekend that his sister was flying over (she lives abroad) to see him, so had to cancel it, and he hasn't done anything since. He literally has not organised a single date night, off his own back, since 2010. He doesn't believe in romance, so never makes any gestures or anything; and doesn't organise anything for our anniversary, my birthday etc. And last week, he forgot I had a job interview! I had to go away for 2 days for the interview, and he texted me saying 'where are you?!' Since I've been back, I've told him how hurt I was, and his response has been to sulk, not talk to me, and sleep in a different bed for 3 nights. He didn't even ask me how it went or whether I got it!

I honestly don't know what to do. I've talked to him three times now about this, and last time made it quite clear that it was his last chance. But now what? He hasn't changed; he's got worse. I don't have any income currently, since we've moved, so we're reliant on his income - which makes me wonder whether I'm being unfair. After all, he does contribute far more money to the family than I do currently (although this will change in January), he does 50% of childcare etc (which is more than a lot of men). I'm really unhappy and all I want to do is go back to our old house & city.

I'm pretty much 100% convinced that there's no-one else. Tbh, I don't think he'd be able to do the logistics of coordinating his time, work, childcare etc to factor in someone else. I think that's really good advice, Starbright, to explicitly remind him that each time he f*s up, it makes me feel like he doesn't care. I don't think he makes that connection. I think he thinks that I know he loves me, so he doesn't need to show it; and that my annoyance with everything else is completely separate.

Then sorry for suggesting it Op re anyone else really don't want to make your situation worse!

Yes sadly my advice comes from experience I've had an IH too and I've def noticed a major improvement when I've directly linked for him the 'forgetfulness' and not doing things or doing things badly to not feeling loved. Not saying it's completely gone but at least now he makes a bit more of an effort.

I think that since you have talked to him and nothing has changed, in fact, by your own admission, things have got worse. You may end up wasting a lot of years trying to get your husband to take an interest, do his share etc, and it is not going to work. The relationship dynamic has changed. Counselling is not a cure all, if talking to him hasn't worked, more talking isn't going to bring about a different outcome. Although it may help you.

Sadly I think this is who he is, he isn't going to make the kind of permanent changes that he needs to for the relationship and living together to be good. Because his needs are being met.

Gathering information on your options is no bad thing. If I were in your position, I would get legal advice and make plans. But then I have been in a similar position (where I moved, gave up a good career, only to have husband behave similarly to yours. Things did not end well, and I wasted many painful soul destroying years trying to find the man who he was before...)

Thanks Starbright - it's really good to hear that it is possible for some change to occur. (No worries at all about the suggestion of someone else!)

I'm sorry for your experience DorindaJ. And yes, the realist side of me acknowledges everything you say. I guess I'm currently feeling that there's very little I can do before January in the way of leaving: I'm swamped with work, and have no financial independence. After January/February, things will be different and I can start to make proper plans. So that gives us 3-4 months: a really short period of time, but enough time for him to at least make an effort. I'm not after miracles. The sorts of things I need (showing more affection; taking responsibility for relationship management; taking more initiative re. house and life admin) would probably take him max. 3 hours a week, tbh. If there's no change at all before I'm financially independent again; and if counselling appears to make no different; then I'll be in a better position to get out.

You had to bully him into marrying and no one knows you are married, there's your answer.

It's not a lack time that causing him to act like this - a cuddle takes 2 seconds

Very good idea to try to fix it one more time, give it a set period to see if it can improve and then after that if no improvement follow the pp advice that some men will just never change and start planning your exit strategy.

Yes why does no one know you are married?!

Bottom line is, he's not going to change. Can you accept this is how it is or not?

My ex is completely like this, in his own bubble. They were raised to be completely selfish and not think of others needs sadly.

Both of us have problems with the history of marriage as an institution. And I kind-of hate weddings. So I'm not really resentful about the fact that he didn't want a big wedding or anything. I'm cross about the fact that he wouldn't take responsibility for our family's financial planning (and getting married was important in terms of securing inheritance etc for the kids); and that he doesn't mark or celebrate our relationship in any other ways. He doesn't want anyone to know that we're married because we did it as a legal transaction - but he's worried that his parents will be cross that we didn't have a 'proper' wedding (we just dived into a registry office with 2 friends as witnesses), and that they weren't invited or involved. But that means that they keep badgering me to get married for the inheritance reasons, and I feel like I can't tell them that we already are!

Omg so you are married but you've not Eveb told your families?! That's not a sustainable lie - you need to tell at least your family that you are married and why you just did it low key. I'm sure they'll be fine with it (although maybe a bit shocked initially) they must know you.

So let me just recap:

• you got married but he won't tell anyone (presumably you don't then wear wedding rings)
• he's not made any friends locallly but you are lonely and spend the evenings by yourself sorting house admin (where is he?)
• he 'often disappears to see his family' etc
• he forgets very important things in your life such as a two day job interview
• he doesn't otherwise show you he loves you or cares about you
• you've not had sex in months and before that only on holiday
• he used to be more attentive and loving even if not the most romantic chap ever
• he's gradually detached himself from you over the last while
• you obviously keep seperate finances as you describe ' not having an income' so my guess is you keep seperate bank accounts

Are you SURE he's not having an affair?! At the very least it sounds like he no longer loves you.

Don't mean to be harsh but you are doing yourself no favours putting your head in the sand - all my alarm bells would be ringing. It sounds like one way or other he may be gearing up to leave you too.

And getting married for inheritance reasons for your children makes no sense - his children would automatically inherit under intestacy rules - it's you as just his partner that wouldn't unless he had made a will nominating you. Now you are married you benefit but the children's position was fine before.

And I might add he's clearly a seasoned liar if he can conceal to his family all this time about your marriage when they have explicitly asked about it!

Weetabix Sorry, I meant to say we got married for inheritance tax reasons. I'm really not bothered by not having had a proper wedding; and I guess I feel it's up to him if he wants to tell his parents or not. I honestly don't think I'm putting my head in the sand about him having an affair - I would actually be quite impressed if he'd managed to organise the logistics of having an affair! He's either at work or he's at home doing childcare, so unless he's squeezing in a quick with a colleague in between lectures, I can't see where he'd have the time! We have a joint bank account for all shared costs, and separate accounts for independent costs/allowance, but he's the only one earning a monthly salary at the moment (I'll get paid in one big chunk in January/February), so his salary is covering all our costs. If I moved out now, I wouldn't have any independent income to pay for our lives. I'm worried I've painted him worse than he is. I think he does love me, and I know how much he adores the children. He wouldn't want to do anything that would jeopardise his relationship with them. But I think he's very self-centred, and is happy to live in an existence in which everything is done for him (either by his mother; or by me), and either doesn't have the confidence or the inclination to break out of that by taking the initiative more (both in terms of admin and in terms of our relationship).

Do you manage to communicate well? Have you in the past been able to resolve issues?

Resentment is a relationship killer and can lead to a negative spiral so it's worth objectively looking back and seeing if this is just a manic time for you both, which he's not handling well.A house move and 3 young children to settle is highly stressful.
Keep in mind the positives, what you like about him, as it can be easy to let go of these.

On the other hand I moved for stbex, almost similar situation, his job took off and there seemed to be a shift in the equality in the relationship.We were previously more like partners (although poor communicators) but he started to act selfishly and seemed detached from my happiness.Its been like it for 4 years and I've finally had to call time on our marriage.

I don't understand what happened, it seems he developed a major case of entitlement/selfishness perhaps from his job and he decided what I needed.
The detachment was so hard to cope with, he was affectionate but only on his terms.

A major change like you have had can cause a fracture in your relationship and it relies on Goodwill, wanting to stay married and good communication skills to get through it.We didn't have those factors but I hope it's better for you.

There are some things about cheaters I did not know.
Affairs can consist of a snatched hour or two in a lunchbreak, on the way to work, on the way home.
Cheaters may very well still love their official partner - it's they way that partner cooks for them, the way they wash their pants and deals with the boring management of a household. Having one's cake and eating it too means an image of domestic success and respectability can continue to be presented to the outside world, to family and to friends, and without being blamed for a split.
Conducting an affair entails telling a lot of lies. When DH "often disappears to see his family" you are unlikely to check up on him having told the truth each time. And he is used to lying to his nearest and dearest, having colluded with you not to reveal the fact you are married.
I hope this isn't the background story in your case OP.

How did the talk with the DH go OP?

With the organisation, it clearly isn't one of you DH strengths and made he's picked up on you being controlling and he feels nothing is ever good enough, like when you redid the decorating, so he's withdrawn from that side of things. Maybe split the load differently and you organise and keep a family calendar he can check, as you say he does it when you ask, and he does all of the cooking or more chores.

So his mother did everything for him; then his college did everything for him? He's expecting you to do everything for him. Clearly.

Point is, is this what you want? Obviously not. But how much do you not want it?

You say you'd given him a last chance - and he pissed all over it, sulking for days (that was to train you btw: don't make a fuss or I'll punish you). This is the deal he's offering. Is it what you want in the long run? Because he has no intention of changing. He only expects you to change and adapt to his agenda

He doesn't value you, which is becoming clear every day. He values the kids and his comfort but he doesn't value you. You're a non-person, like his mother: only worthwhile if she's his housekeeper, facilitating his life.

You can't make deals you're not prepared to carry out - re you said this was his 'last chance' but it wasn't.

We had a long, difficult conversation last night. This thread has been really useful in clarifying that, for me, it's not so much the unequal division of life admin; but the fact that we've stopped being a couple in any meaningful sense. He hasn't organised a date, or something for us to do together, since March 2010: any nights out or whatever or organised by me. Any conversations about our relationship are instigated by me, which puts me in the position of the nagging wife, which I hate. We don't do anything together that doesn't involve the children. Even the conversation last night I ended up having to instigate and direct.

Anyway, he acknowledges and agrees with my description of our relationship, but does seem to want to improve things (although he's said this before, so as I said to him, it makes it quite difficult for me to feel optimistic). We've decided to each draw up a list of things that we think we (either individually or as a couple) could do to help the relationship. He made me a cup of tea this morning, and left an 'I love you' note stuck to the fridge. We'll see.

I think his passive way of dealing with life in general is deeply ingrained, though. He said that there were all sorts of things he'd been wanting to talk about, or ask about, re. our relationship, my health (I've been having various hospital appointments for certain tests), my job interview etc. But that he was either scared to, or thought that if I wanted to talk about it, I'd bring it up. But then he'd get resentful about the fact that I hadnt brought it up. And of course, I interpret the fact that he hadn't initiated any of these conversations as a sign of lack of investment in our family life or relationship. When he gets scared, or worried, or stressed, or angry, he just locks himself in his own bubble (like, literally - holing himself up in his attic study) and either hopes I'll deal with the problem, or that it'll go away. I don't know to what extent I can live with that, really.

I don't know how I feel about everything. I don't want to leave him - I just want him to be better. I think we've both forgotten what we actually like about one another - I hope we can rediscover that, with a bit of effort. But I'm not very optimistic about people's capacity to change, even if they haven't always been like this. I made it very very clear that this was the last time I was going to have this conversation. I've worked out my finances, and have a financial plan if we do need to separate. I've given myself (and him) until next summer (for various life reasons, it would be hard to sell the house until then) for our relationship to get significantly better. I hope that a deadline, and having re-opened the channels of communication, will help. It's been really useful for me to realise that his lack of participation in life admin was so upsetting, not because I'm fucked off about paying the gas bill, but because it was symptomatic of his lack of investment and active participation in our relationship. I can live with managing our finances etc, if I feel that he's a fully present husband and life partner in other respects. I don't know how optimistic I feel; but I do feel clearer.

If you aren't a candidate for a marriage course, I don't know who is.

I hate to say it but it's a tall order for him to change so drastically on his own. He needs a structure, a course, to climb on. Also, of course, couples counselling would offer the same but perhaps not as structured; and the emphasis would be on him to go away and action huge (for him) changes. But couples counselling would at least give you both the chance to lay everything on the table and have a look at it all in detail in a safe environment.

I'd go for doing both marriage course/s and couples counselling. Marriage can be bloody HARD and you have to invest as much as you possibly can to get through life changes that inevitably bring up weaknesses in the union - so far, so normal. Melding your life to someone else's is bloody hard work sometimes but you throw as much at it as you can. The ideal is that overcoming the difficulties, learning more about accommodating one another, makes you stronger.

At least these days these support networks are out there, unlike back in the day eh.

Because, frankly, divorce is no picnic. To state the obvious. Sometimes there's no other option but do all you (both) can to turn over every stone first.

Thanks Springydaffs. Yes, I've said that I want us to go to Relate counselling. I'm not sure about marriage courses - aren't they all pretty Christian? (We're not). I think you're right, though, that it's difficult to make changes without the support and structure of therapy. I'm a big believer in counselling/therapy and have found it life-changing in the past, to make my own big changes (before I met DH). I think he's going to take some persuading, but I hope that if we can go in the positive spirit of 'we want help to make our relationship better' rather than my angry, negative mood of the last few weeks, then it might seem less scary to him.